John 6:37,65

And for this, JD, you’ve earned a place in the Hall of the Ignored…


”For Calvinism to flourish the sheeple must be kept ignorant and distracted.”

Good bye and good riddance!!!

 

JD731,

.

Understanding history has value. Bible understanding and interpretation does not begin and end at you. I am not an expert of church history, but am aware of false teachers and their followers to know it when I hear it.
1. Arians have been called the “archetypal” Christian heretics; accusations of Arianism have been made in almost every century since the fourth. Taking its name from an Egyptian priest, Arius, this heresy holds that Jesus, while the son of God, is neither eternal nor as fully divine as God the father.

2. Free Spirit heretics were thought in the 14th and 15th centuries to believe that once people reach a state of spiritual perfection, laws no longer apply to them. While the heresy may have existed more in the minds of inquisitors than anywhere else, fear of it sparked persecutions in France, Holland and Spain.

3. Marcionites, living in the second and third centuries, believed that the vengeful, angry God they found in the Hebrew Bible was an evil tyrant, separate from—and inferior to—the loving, forgiving God of the New Testament. Like many of their contemporaries, they perceived the world as a battleground between the forces of good and evil.

4. My colleague Maureen A. Tilley, Ph.D., has written extensively about Donatists. They declared that baptism and other sacraments administered by so-called “traditores”—Christians who had willingly repudiated their faith in the face of persecution from the Roman Empire—were invalid.

5. Cathars may have formed groups in southern France and Italy in the 12th through 14th centuries. The most extreme among them believed that the physical world was the handiwork of an evil god. Avoiding meat, cheese and some other foods, as well as refraining from sexual intercourse, were ways to connect with the spiritual world.

6. Docetists proposed that the Son of God never fully took on human flesh and that the body of Jesus was an illusion, just as Zeus in Greek mythology took the form of a bull to seduce Europa. Jesus, therefore, never physically died on the cross.

7. Nestorians, another group of early Christians, believed that the human and divine persons of Jesus remained separate; thus for them “Jesus Christ” and “the Son of God” are not quite one and the same. Nestorian churches remained active in Persia and China as late as the eighth century.

8. Pelagians derived their name from Pelagius, a British monk who preached in fifth-century Rome. He allegedly declared that Christians could earn their way into Heaven by doing good deeds, without the need of divine grace.

9. Conciliarists lived at a time in the Middle Ages when two and sometimes three rivals simultaneously claimed to be pope. They believed that church councils hold ultimate authority and even have the power to depose the pope. They were formally condemned at the Fifth Lateran Council of 1512–1517; ultimately, the doctrine of papal infallibility was declared in 1870.

10. Lollards lived in 14th- through 16th-century England and may have been inspired by the teachings of John Wyclif, a controversial philosopher and theologian at the University of Oxford. Rejecting transubstantiation, the powers of the pope and many ceremonies of the church, they advocated for what some have called a “premature Reformation.”

These are only a few examples. You have been foisting a false teaching upon us ,while suggesting Calvinists, Puritans, Spurgeon all needed to consult your posts ,then they would have all learned something???

Do you think you might have an extra bit of zeal JD.?
It is good to be excited about theology, but maybe it is possible that God has allowed others to learn a thing or two also.
Some things you say are true and biblical. That does not mean you have it all.

Your disdain for these truths does not eliminate them from Church history, does it?

No one suggests Jesus is not the TRUE MANNA did they?

It is directly in this context that He explains His coming and the Father's eternal purpose in giving a Covenant people to the Son. God is a Covenant keeping God.

 

You do understand that Jn 6:44 is, in context, coming to Jesus as the bread of life and it is expected that those who come are coming to eat this bread. You do concur that the bread cannot give them life unless he is inside of them, right?

Don't forget while you are ignoring me that I am your friend and I thank you for the time we talked.

 

Read this passage and note that the free will persons in the group left Jesus as he told them point blank that He saves them. They don't save themselves nor do they choose him. Instead, he chooses them. His believers will eat his flesh and drink his blood.
It is hard for someone who demands control to be told they have no control.

John 6:41-51,53-58,60-66
So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the breadthe fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

 

Actually I haven't given you false teaching. I have carefully considered the context. I have accepted the fact that Jesus is speaking metaphorically about the bread, the manna, and also about him saying one must drink his blood and eat his flesh to have life in him. The properties of these physical things have the same properties as what they represent in the spiritual. Jesus actually says that to these men. Watch this;

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

He would later say this about how he spake to them.

Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

There are hundreds of interpretations of men, as you have noted above, but there is one divine Spirit teacher. Men are divided and are usually led by a single charismatic leader or founder of the particular movement and the respondents are drawn to this teacher as if he has it all figured out. The scriptures are written in such a way that the doctrines are hidden in plain sight from them that have not learned to think like God and in the words he has given us to do so, One must have the Spirit of Christ inside of them in order to think the thoughts of God. I have quoted it many times so I will not do it again but 1 Cor 2 tells us this.

This means that false religions follows a fake philosophy because men without the Spirit must figure things out without the help of God. This is the reason we have to deal with Calvinisms many added teachings that have no basis in biblical truth and revelation. Many things are made up out of thin air, like sovereign grace, the sovereignty of God, when he has told us over and over that the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, but he has let it out to men as stewards over it and they will one day give account of their stewardship. Other doctrines like pre-creation election of individuals to salvation from the penalty of sin, that faith is the gift of God, like men are saved by faith through grace rather than by grace through faith as the scriptures teach, and I could go on and on.

These things took root during church history and are false teachings. They are not true.

No one has said the true manna must be eaten, except Jesus in John 6.

This line is made up, not by you but by someone who has taught you. He is dealing with his covenant people, Israel, and he is keeping his promise to send the virgin born Messiah (anointed one) to them. I remind you that Jesus came under the principle of the Mosaic Law to minister to Israel.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

He must come under the law because the law condemned every one of them and only one who could be proven to keep the law perfectly could qualify as their substitution sacrifice so they could go free. Jesus was the bread for all Israel when he came into the world as a man and all men could eat and live, but all men did not eat and live.

Mt 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

He is the bread again here. The bread is sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That is not you and that is not me.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

His own (Israel) did not eat the bread that the Father sent down from heaven so they might live.

Think this thing through.

 

Choosing is not an issue in the text. Eating the bread that the Father sent is the issue. The only person that Jesus chose in this whole text was a devil, he said.

You need to understand that your teachers have been telling you lies.Get angry at your teachers.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

 

Re-read.
Jesus is telling them that those the Father gives him will believe. They will eat his flesh and drink his blood. The others won't.
Those who heard this who wanted Jesus on their terms could not receive his words and walked away, just as the son of perdition would do later on.

 

Try as you might you cannot be true to Calvinism's ridiculous claim that man does not have a will and the right to choose. These are Israelites in Jn 6. The Father gives all those who come to Jesus to him because they are all his. He draws them through the OT promises of the Messiah as he fulfills the OT types and information they have studied about him. This is God dealing with his own people, nation, in the gospel accounts under the principle of the Mosaic law. The gentiles are not under consideration here and gentiles have never been under the law of Moses and God never had a relationship with gentiles in times past. The scriptures have context. All Israelites were God's people. He sent them bread to eat so they might live just like he did in the wilderness when they came out of Egypt. They must come to the bread and eat the bread to live. Some did, most did not because they followed false religious leaders who told them lies, like Calvinists do today.

It would be later, and under a different principle (grace) that God would speak to gentiles. They would have known nothing about manna.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past (before the law of Moses ended) Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now (after the death of Christ and his resurrection) in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; (between Jew and gentile)
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (Jew and gentile) one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both (Jew and gentile) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (gentiles), and to them that were nigh.(Jews)
18 For through him we both (Jews and gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

To suggest that gentiles could have come to Christ under the law of Moses is to reject the entire context and teaching of the scriptures. Calvinists have taken something wonderful and have completely perverted it. The new testament in the blood of Christ is full of promises to gentiles but we too, like Jews, must come to Christ in faith, trusting that what he did for us on the cross was sufficient to give us life and that the Father God will birth us into his spiritual family if we will believe in him. We as gentiles go no further back than the gospel of Christ to receive our promise of salvation. We were far off before that.

 

The Bible says that God chooses. No one says that man has no capacity to make decisions. We state what the Bible states:
Romans 3:9-18 For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

I highlighted your added words.

[/QUOTE]He draws them through the OT promises of the Messiah as he fulfills the OT types and information they have studied about him.[/QUOTE]
The word translated as "draw", means “to drag." It is the image of water being dragged up a well by a bucket. The water is entirely dependent upon the force exerted by the one doing the work of drawing. The water doesn't help. Indeed it cannot help.

This is Jesus telling covenant Israel that not all of them are saved.

It seems you ignore Romans 1-11. Paul provides a masterful argument that destroys your complaint.

Indeed they do. You should actually consider context first before you force your bias upon the text as you have done.

Romans 2:28-29 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Your prejudice, without support, is obvious to all.

God has always been a gracious and merciful God to both Jews and Gentiles. We see that God chose Abraham, a non-Jew, to make a gracious covenant with.

Wonderful words from God to all whom God chose to make alive with Christ. (Ephesians 2:4-5)

Here, you are ignorant of all the gentiles God redeemed. Rahab, Ruth, Nebuchadnezzer...and more...

I observe scripture. You seem to hate what I observe.

Indeed, God, like he did with Israel, must draw us to Himself.
Left to our own selves, we would always (100% of the time) choose self rule.

You seem to cast off the Old Covenant as of no value. Yet every writer of the New Testament quotes extensively from it and Jesus, himself, points us to it. You seem to "throw the baby out with the bath water."

 

You have no proof of this at all.
MB

 

We NEVER claim that sinners have no free will, but unlike you, we do not think that will is unlimited, as its bound to a sin nature!
Jesus agreed that sinners are enslaved to their sin natures, do you?

 

STOP!
Everything you have said after this opening line is null and void because you have not told the truth here. Calvinism claims that a man is dead spiritually and they define dead spiritually as having no capacity to respond to spiritual truth. That is what Calvinism teaches and if you deny it for the sake of this argument, I will start a thread on the will of man on the Calvinist/Armenian forum and prove it to you and to every other person who reads it. Calvinism teaches that a man must be chosen to be saved by God before he is ever born physically and is a citizen of the world or of Israel. If he is one who is not chosen, then he cannot be saved, it doesn't matter if God covers the earth with bread 3 feet deep and then declares the eating of the bread he provides is the source of life, everlasting life.

Calvinists try to prove Calvinism, not the truth of the scriptures.

Every single Israelite during the days of the manna had to eat the manna that God provided from heaven in order to live. God gave the manna to all, not just a few. This is the story of the manna. It was sufficient for Israel to live, but they must go to where it was and eat it. It had to be in their bodies in order for it to bring life. That is the message of John 6.
Calvinists are as much in the dark about this truth as were the Jews who argued and accused Jesus Christ that day in Capernaum in the synagogue. If Israel would not have eaten the manna during those days they would not have lived and if Israel would not eat the flesh of Jesus Christ and drink his blood they would have no life in them.

Thus sayeth the scriptures and it is not about God choosing anyone, it is about Israel believing in the Son of God. It is about eating the bread.

 

This is just not true. Sin nature is not a term that Jesus used. You made that one up.

 

Here is a truth for Calvinists on this forum.

Paul claimed he was the apostle to the gentiles. He explained the doctrines of the NT church of Jesus Christ. He wrote 13 books in the NT, almost 1/2 of it, and he never used the word draw in any of his letters. The drawing is a made up doctrine of Calvinism and it is like a strange perverted man who weighs two hundred pounds and 175 of those pounds is his hand. It makes for a strange looking fellow.

The word draw does not appear post resurrection in the same context of the drawing of the Father as it does in Jn 6. Anyone can do a word search and see that I am telling the truth.

 

No proof? It is a direct quote of Scripture sir. So unless you deny Scripture I wouldn't say there is no proof.

 

Do you have a sin nature?

 

John 6:44?

 

We also made up the term Trinity, do you believe in the Trinity?

 

And that makes a difference because...?

Paul uses terms like adoption, election, chosen and predestination.
John uses the word translated as "draw" which means, "to drag."
In all cases we see that God is Supreme and we are weak. Without God we would not be.

 

So you only go with Paul and ignore the Gospels? Read John.