Good verses, but hlyourconcp
I had used voice to text it auto corrected some words.
Mary...womb...jer1:5....ordained....foreknow
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Mary...womb...jer1:5....ordained....foreknow
EG
No biblical response can even begin to suggest the blasphemy that God causes men to sin.
That is a theological third rail.
All Reformed confessions clearly say God ordained whatsoever comes to pass, but yet is not the author of sin.
Fleshly reasoning might twist what is written in the confessions...but they are very clear
"Silverhair,
[Christ Jesus came to do the will of God the Father and that will was to save all those that would believe in Him. Certain persons are not selected and then given to Jesus in order to become believers, as some assert, but rather people are given to Jesus because they are already believers.]
After listing good verses you post this absurdity.
You deny the direct truth that the Father gave the elect children to the Son.Hebrews2:13-16.
Do you hate the truth of God so much you directly oppose it?
[Christ Jesus came to do the will of God the Father and that will was to save all those that would believe in Him. Certain persons are not selected and then given to Jesus in order to become believers, as some assert, but rather people are given to Jesus because they are already believers.]
After listing good verses you post this absurdity.
You deny the direct truth that the Father gave the elect children to the Son.Hebrews2:13-16.
Do you hate the truth of God so much you directly oppose it?
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Hello eg
In the Old Testament the word to know had to do with an intimate relationship even as such as husband and wife Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived conceived then a few verses later Adam knew his wife again and she conceived.
Joseph knew not Mary until arter the birth of Jesus .
God tells them in Jeremiah 1:5 before I formed you in the womb I knew you and ordained you to be a prophet to the nations. So when God says for whom he did foreknow He is speaking of those that He had an intimate knowledge of and he set his love on them. God is omniscient, so this is different from His knowing all things...here He enters into a Covenant relationship with them.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
lol
Or you just do not want to see it because it would distort your view.
Show me a loving father who forces their kids to do what he wants to do without giving them free will
You won;t find one.
That is the definition f love..
Love is found all through scripture its the main message, you want to find proof in scripture. Study it and study it hard.
Gods dealing in the garden, His dealing after the garden, His dealing with Israel and his dealing with the church.
Like I said before. If you do not want to see something, You will not find it.
An anti trinitarian will reject that the trinity is real. And ask you to show it in the word. Just because you can not find it word for word does not mean it is not there
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
You do realise Paul spoke present tense in this
He was not speaking about his past.. before he was saved.
yet even if he was. The tax collector did not do a good deed when he got on his knees in desperation. He did what all people do when they come to christ. He called out for mercy. because he realised how dire and bancrupt he was
The point is, the tax collector. In his flesh. Got on his knees and cried out for Gods mercy.
That was not a good deed, A righteous work, or whatever you all call it. It was an act of desperation.
Jesus said unless we become poor in spirit we will nto see the kingdom. The word poor in that verse literally means to become bancrupt. To have nothing, To be so deep in debt you can;t get out.
Thats what the tax collector did. Thats what Paul did. When he was in the flesh. In that road when Jesus confronted him. He became poor in spirit. Thats what I did, thats what I hope you did.
Trying to use paul speaking of him in the flesh WHILE HE IS SAVED to try to prove that before salvation we can do nothing is a faulty argument,
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Again,
What did he know these people. Why did he have an intimate knowledge of them and not the rest of the world?
There is a reason. Its in the word. He did not just randomly chose them.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
When she was born, Did you plan to force her to do your will at all times, Or did you plan out her life of helping her to chose right things, and hoping she would follow?
God knew us before we were born. Intimately. It means he know who we where, our thoughts our dreams, what we would do. What we could do.
It is this knowledge that he bases this love on. Not just some random I chose you bt reject you
I loved my kids to. But I loved what they could become. I had dreams for them/ But I could not know them as God did. So I could not love them as God did.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Icon
No works based gospel preacher will admit he preaches works.
Yet they do.
Thats why many people hate reformed theology. Because of wat it comes across as.
I do believe reformers are my brothers. As they do not preach a works based gospel (unlike the arminian theology that teaches we must earn salvation (although they will deny it). But they character the make Gd out to m=be is not pleasing. And to me and many others. Gives God a bad name.
Saying there is no free will. Means people do what God wants them to do. They had no choice. In this aspect. You are in effect claiming God is the one who created sin.
In reality, God created the ability to sin, By giving free will. He gave man the ability to chose him, or chose self. Sin in its pure definition is choosing self over God. Adam and Eve chose self when they ate of the tree.
Paul tells us in romans 1. Man, who know God, did not praise him as God but hid him in their hearts. Knowing not only what they do is sin. And they are rightly judged, but helping others to follow them in their sin.
Yet in that same passage, paul said no one has an excuse. If you can not even have the ability to chose to become poor in spirit and call out as the tax collector. Then you have an excuse. Because you had no change to do what God said to do.
Isreal was given a choice. Look up to the serpent and live, or do not look up and try to save yourself and die.
Jesus was raised up also. We have a choice. Look to the cross and live, or do not look to the cross and die.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Let's show you the absurdity of your argument.
A loving father would force his kids not to drink alcohol underaged, despite if their free will wants to. So yes, I found one. In your view, "Show me a loving father who forces their kids to do what he wants to do without giving them free will" I should let my child drink underage if they want to.
A loving father would also force his children to go to church whether they want to or not, to go to school whether they want to or not. So do you see how absurd your argument is?
Now, I am still waiting on your scriptural backing for your viewpoint.
...was regenerate. Otherwise he could have never realized his condition. AFTER he came to Christ he was saved.
Unregenerate:
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get.
Regenerate:
13 But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be thou merciful to me a sinner. Lu 18
God does not do random things at all.
He has an eternal.purpose that has been.manifested to the church Eph3:9-11.
Who God sets His love upon is His concern.
There is nothing in us that attracts that love.We are like Ezekiels infant described in chapter 16.
In Deut.7 God determined to save some out of one nation at that time.
The reason was internal. Among the trinity...not external by anything they did.
Free will is a philosophical term not used of men in the bible.
It is s not used because it does not exist.
Your will is bound by your nature...Roman's 6.
Men have self will.
They are moral agents who make choices according to their nature.
Adam in sinful rebellion brought this upon us all.
We are never free to sin.
We are able to sin, but never free to sin.
When Jesus sets us "free"...jn8.....we are still never free to sin...only free to serve Gal.5:13...use not your liberty as an occasion to the flesh.
Does this help you understand?
If that is true, which it is not, then the new covenant is not a reality because it has the same basis of the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 12 as all the rest of God's covenants to Israel. These covenants consist of the foundational covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, which established his family through Isaac and Jacob as the people of God and gave them the land of Palestine forever whether they occupied it or not. Secondly, God gave the Mosaic Covenant of Law, which was a conditional covenant in Exodus 20. This was 430 years after the Abrahamic Covenant. Next, he gave them the land covenant, or the Palestinian covenant that is made with them on the east side of the Jordan just before Joshua led them over to the promised land. This covenant would condition them in the ways to continue to occupy the land and it contained a promise of a circumcision of the heart and the restoration of the land should they ever loose possession. This is in Duet. 30 and I encourage you to read it and to believe the words you read. Next, in 2 Kings 7 God made a covenant with David that has impact upon time and eternity from that point going forward. He established the kingship of Israel from his family. Psalm 89 is the psalm of the Davidic covenant. Finally, in Jesus Christ he established the New Covenant with Israel. All these covenants were confirmed with an oath, except the conditional Mosaic covenant.
Attention. God has not made any covenants with anyone except this family of Abraham since Gen 12, including the New Covenant. However, all people and every individual on the earth is invited to become "partakers" with the Jews in the spiritual blessings of this new Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ. I am not guessing about this because we are specifically told that here.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
You see how God has not made a covenant with gentiles but he has made us partakers with the new covenant he made with the Jews.
So, you are totally wet concerning the covenants of God and with whom they are made and how the world interacts with them.
Here is a statement that you will not receive and understand because you have trained yourself to attempt to prove your presuppositions from scripture, like you are a special class of sinner that God wants to save above most other sinners, This statement is made in 58 AD. For historical context, Jesus Christ was crucified in 30 AD and 50 days later the gift of the Spirit of Christ was given to the Jews from heaven by God the Father. The Jews rejected the national salvation in 37 AD in a showdown with Stephen in Acts 8 at which time the gospel broke Jewish bounds into Samaria, then later in Acts 10 to the gentiles.
The year 37 AD was the year Saul of Tarsus was saved on the Damascus Road. God trained him in Arabia for three years and revealed to him the purpose of this age and prepared him to preach to the gentiles. Peter was sent to Cornelius meanwhile in 40 AD and opened the door of faith to the gentiles for the first time and gave them the Spirit as he had given to the Jews 10 years earlier. So now, when Romans, the sixth letter of Paul was written, all the water that had run under the bridge was from Acts 1 to Acts 18 after he met Priscilla and Aquila who had to leave Rome because the Roman Emperor had order all Jews out in AD 54.
So, in 58 AD Paul wrote to the Roman church, 18 years after the door of faith was opened to gentiles and they were accepted by God on equal status as the Jews who believed. It was 28 years after the Jews had been given the Spirit. Here is what Paul said at that time;
Ro 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Do you think a gentile proselyte of the OT would become a child of Abraham when he adopted the Jewish law and customs as was required of the proselyte. The answer is no. The proselyte would partake of the Israelites covenant blessings but they would not share in the birthright. However, in the NT the blessing is based upon the birthright, not of Abraham or Jacob but of God and though there are distinguishable Jews and gentiles in the family of God, all are equally children. The Jews were born into the family first by grace and promise and the gentiles were invited in on the principles of grace and mercy.
This statement by Jesus Christ has never changed and it never will. You must accept it.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jesus is talking to you.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You have that analogy BACKWARDS (just like your view of salvation). I loved my daughter before she was born, just as God loved me before I was born … so it is not my daughter that needs to be omniscient (and I can guarantee that I was able to love her without my being omniscient). The POINTis that my love for my DAUGHTER and God’s love for His Children is not based on a knowledge of what they will do … It is a love based on who they are, relationally, to the one that LOVES.
God loves us because He chose us to be His children, and FATHERS love their CHILDREN.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Man has a free will, but it is a will that is only free to do what it desires. Man cannot do what it does not desire. Man cannot do what is impossible for man to do.
You do not have the free will to choose to be a unicorn. You may desire to be a unicorn, but desire is not enough. You also cannot accept the things of God without a spiritual mind from God. That is not my opinion, that is what scripture teaches.
what does Ephesians 2 state about all being guilty of sin and dead and slaves to the world? Is it true or not? I say it is true.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I really do not understand what is so hard about this concept.
Exactly:
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Your whole argument is destroyed in the fact that the child STILL has the freedom to drink, Even thought it will cause consequences.
You do not understand what love is.
Like I said its all in the word. John 3 is a perfect example. But you can;t see if, because your don;t want to.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Nope. He was still dead in his sin. You ca nNOT be regenerate UNTIL your sins are forgiven. He called out because he knew his sin he was still dead.
He went him justified.
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