John 6:37

[Reformed1689]

God foresees all who will be saved, and these are the elect (Romans 8:28-30). God doesn't "look into the future", as eternity is immediately present to Him.

You need to learn some Greek.

 

[Silverhair]

I love ‘logic’ as a study, so I hope you don’t mind if I give this a shot.

GIVEN:
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. - John 6:37

Let us assume for this exercise in logic (and reading comprehension) that PERSON A is “given” by the Father to the Son (as in one of “All that the Father giveth me”). Let us also assume that PERSON B is “not given” by the Father to the Son (as in NOT one of “All that the Father giveth me”).

The only unproven assumption is that not ALL are given by the Father to the Son. This actually can be proven from other scripture, but this verse standing alone does not disprove universal salvation. However, for this discussion, we will ASSUME that everyone without exception is not PERSON A.

So what do we KNOW (as a certainty from the quoted verse) about PERSON A:

1. The Father gave PERSON A to the Son: “All that the Father giveth me” ( from our definition of PERSON A).
2. PERSON A will come to the Son: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me”.
   
3. PERSON A will never be cast out by the Son: “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (point 2 established that PERSON A “cometh to me”).
4. PERSON A has eternal life (the surrounding verses affirm that “coming to Christ” is equivalent to “eternal life”, so this is a clarification of the definition of what it means for PERSON A to “come to me”.)

So what do we KNOW (as a certainty from the quoted verse) about PERSON B:

1. The Father did not gave PERSON B to the Son: “All that the Father giveth me” ( from our definition of PERSON B).
2. PERSON B may or may not come to the Son, but they have no guarantee that they will come to the son: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me”. (This then begs the Pelagian question: ‘Can men come to God without the need for any action on God’s part?’ … other scripture says no, so PERSON B cannot come to the Son - John 6:44)
   
3. PERSON B has no assurance of acceptance by the Son: “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
4. PERSON B has no eternal life (without coming to Christ, there is no “other” door to salvation).

What we can know from this verse about PERSON A affirms everything in the Doctrines of Grace (‘Calvinism’) about God choosing and drawing and saving and preserving those He has chosen. What we can know about PERSON B from this verse is all speculation centered on the ability of MEN to draw themselves to Christ without the Father and to cling to Christ who has made no promise to cling to them. Fortunately, we have more than this one verse (or even this one chapter) to fill in the missing information about PERSON B and the desperate need for men to be PERSON A if they are to be saved at all.

However, to your points: NOTHING in this verse refutes the Doctrines of Grace, rather they affirm the efficacy of the Father to save those whom He gives to the Son.

Fortunately, we have more than this one verse (or even this one chapter) to fill in the missing information about PERSON B that God does indeed give them the necessary information, the gospel, and that hearing it they can believe or disbelieve it is their choice
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
and again here
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

God will give the son all those that believe in Him just like the bible says.

 

[Silverhair]

Yep, He knew the persons beforehand...
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

4x the texts says WHOM,,,,,, BUT UNLESS YOU REPENT FROM BLAMING GOD FOR MANS SIN IT IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU.

Right GOD knows all those that will freely trust in His son. Who is questioning that?

 

[Silverhair]

The verse is clearly distinguishing between foreknowing and predestinating. It says, whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

Don't miss that God predestined them to become conformed to the image of His Son. They were to grow so as to become more and more Christ like in their Christian walk while living and this was to be made complete when one is taken home to be with Him.

 

[Silverhair]

OK, so let’s figure out what you have a problem with.

T.U.L.I.P.

You already admitted that you have no issue with “P” (Preservation of the Saints) … God doesn’t “drop” anyone along the way.

So what about “T” (Total Inability / Total Depravity) … it is all Adam’s fault, and because of him, we are all born with a body, a mind and a spirit (or soul) that is ‘bent’ enough that it naturally points in any direction except towards God. THEREFORE, men are incapable of saving themselves without help from God (grace comes before salvation).

Do you have a problem with the “T”?

If you want to go with the "total inability" view then you have to say that man also has no ability to sin on his own. Remember your the one's that say God is sovereign in such a way that nothing can or does happen that He does not control.

Logically if man has no ability to choose to follow God then that would mean that everyone that is in hell is there because God made it so. If you say that man always chooses his greatest desire in the hope that will save you, sorry you fail. Remember your version of sovereign means that even the desire is something that God made the man have.

Calvinism when taken to it's logical conclusion does not work as they like to portray it.

 

[Silverhair]

I have a problem with limited atonement, unconditional election, and irresistable grace. The other two points, if they don't mean what I think Calvinists mean by them, I have no problem with. But I don't think everyone is totally depraved, as though there is no good in every single person. I think they're just doing dead works, works that cannot please God becase they are not in faith. And I think they are not going to enter Heaven because they have not met God's perfect standard. They "have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God".

If, being illuminated by the Holy Spirit, they choose of their own free will to respond in faith, believing in Christ, they are sealed by the same spirit till the day of redemption, the rapture.

You say you have no problem with "limited atonement, unconditional election, and irresistable grace". But have you thought them through to there logical conclusion.?

God unconditionally chooses to save some, but not all, Christ died only for the elect that God unconditionally chooses to save, and God gives irresistible grace to the fortunate elect. If you do not meet any of these conditions then you are doomed from the start.

You said "they choose of their own free will to respond in faith, believing in Christ" but under the calvinist TULIP that is not an option. In calvinism man has no real free will.

Calvinists will say that man always chooses his greatest desire so he has free will. But that free will is to always sin. But what they fail to mention is that under their view of the sovereignty of God, one where He decrees and controls all things that can or will happen, even the desires of the mans' heart are determined by God. So what they present as free will is just false, it is not free will it is a controlled will.

 

[Silverhair]

And where do you get that from Scripture?

Where do you not find it in scripture?

 

[Reformed1689]

Where do you not find it in scripture?

You guys are the ones making the claim.

 

[Silverhair]

you will never come to truth if you avoid it

look again;
,
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

the Whom are;
foreknown........He also
predestined.....THEM He also
called..........them He also
justified........Them He also
glorified.....

No way to avoid it.

I keep saying the same thing to you but in your case it has not helped.

"whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"

You may wonder why God would predestinate those He foreknew? it is because those He called through the gospel message when they believed He justified them, and those same ones will be glorified. And that is why they will be conformed to the image of His son.
Seems clear to me and just like Paul said here
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Silverhair]

The “total” isn’t depth, it’s breath. It doesn’t mean “everyone is as depraved as they can possibly be”. It means that NO PART of man was left untouched by sin at the fall.

• Our FLESH (bodies) do not naturally crave to do what is right … tell any teenager awash with hormones that abstaining from physical contact with members of the opposite gender is best for maintaining personal holiness and see how innately popular and easy to follow that advice is. Let’s try a simpler one, food is necessary to survive, but our body so craves “excess pleasure” that the world has an obesity problem. Clearly our bodies are not perfect.
• Our MIND thinks evil thoughts. Paul dedicated a chapter to the war between wanting to please God and the constant draw of sin. Jesus said “hate” was equal to “murder” … that is our fallen mind naturally drawing us away from God and towards sin. Of course we can fight to resist it. The point is that something is broken when we need to fight to resist our own thoughts.
• Our SPIRIT does not naturally yield to God. Read the bottom of Romans 1 and see how men are “idol factories”. Satan whispers “you can be like God” and something inside of us WANTS to be like God. We are born wanting to control our destiny rather than yield.

FLESH - MIND - SPIRIT = every part of us = TOTAL

“Depravity” just means ‘corrupted by sin and unable to do what God requires to be righteous.

The real bottom line of TOTAL DEPRAVITY is nothing more complicated than “Men cannot choose God without help from God”. If you believe Ephesians 2:1-10 tells the truth, then you believe in the “T” of TULIP.

While I do not agree with calvinism I do agree that man is depraved. Man is a sinner by nature but man also has the ability to make real free will choices. We see this all the time in ourselves and in others.

If you continue on from Eph 1:10 we find that man can and some do trust in Christ Jesus by choice.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
That salvation by faith is all part of Gods' plan as He works all things after the counsel of His will.

Is man depraved, YES, is he so depraved that he can not upon hearing the gospel message choose the follow Christ Jesus, NO.

 

[Reformed1689]

I keep saying the same thing to you but in your case it has not helped.

"whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son"

You may wonder why God would predestinate those He foreknew? it is because those He called through the gospel message when they believed He justified them, and those same ones will be glorified. And that is why they will be conformed to the image of His son.
Seems clear to me and just like Paul said here
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Just curious, what do you think foreknew means?

 

[Reformed1689]

Man is a sinner by nature but man also has the ability to make real free will choices.

Free will does not mean you can choose anything. Do I have the free will to be a major leaguer? It is your humanistic thinking, that you can choose whatever you want equally, that gives us the transgender movement.

 

[Silverhair]

God knew the people, as individuals, before he predestined them.
The “foreknew” is about God being deeply personal and relational, it is not about “knowledge”. God did not choose YOU because He knew what you would do or say, rather God chose YOU because He knew YOU and wanted YOU.

It is BECAUSE God chose you that you did and said the things that you did and said. Read John 6 and John 10 and Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2. See that it is the story of GOD claiming YOU for himself. HIS draw. HIS sheep. HIS gift. HIS mercy. HIS love. For HIS children whom HE knew … foreknew … knew even before HE predestined and called and justified them.

What you say leaves out one important point, man has to respond to God drawing him before he is one of Gods' sheep. The gift of salvation by Gods' grace is through faith. If it was not for the love and mercy of God no one would or could be saved. God, because He is omniscient, has known from before time who would freely trust in His son and be justified and has predestined them to be conformed to the image of His son.

God wanted all mankind to be saved but would not violate their free will to make that happen. Such is the love of God for His creation.

 

[Silverhair]

Stating facts not in evidence.

1. Who committed suicide?
2. How do you know who belongs to Christ? (Matthew 7:21-23)
3. Where is the evidence that God made anyone commit suicide?

I would say that if you hold to the WCF/LBCF then what ever happens here is because God decreed it to happen. That is what those confessions say isn't it.

 

[Silverhair]

Then you do not know Calvinism and should not argue against something you do not know/understand.

When one reads the calvinist texts and ones sees what is written there what are they supposed to think. Just because calvinist say that the words do not mean what they say does not change what they say.

 

[Silverhair]

Right, which is not the same as foresee.

Now you are just playing silly games. Do you think that God foreknowing something is not the same as Him foreseeing something? I would expect the better of you

 

[Silverhair]

Except that isn't what is stated in Scripture.

But you expect us to accept what calvinism puts forward although it is not stated in scripture. Double standard

 

[Silverhair]

You need to learn some Greek.

Why, what did he get wrong. You just make negative comments but add nothing.

 

[Reformed1689]

Why, what did he get wrong. You just make negative comments but add nothing.

The meaning of foreknew for example.

 

[Reformed1689]

Do you think that God foreknowing something is not the same as Him foreseeing something?

It is not foreknowing something it is foreknowing someone. And correct, it is not the same as foresight.