John 6:37

[Silverhair]

Just curious, what do you think foreknew means?

When speaking of God it means that He knows something is going to happen and to Him it already has. That is because He is omniscient.

For us mere mortals it would be us talking about something that happened in the past as in I knew you would ask this type of question as you try to sound smart.

 

[Silverhair]

Free will does not mean you can choose anything. Do I have the free will to be a major leaguer? It is your humanistic thinking, that you can choose whatever you want equally, that gives us the transgender movement.

Don't be insulting. You know what free will is, your just being contrarian again.

You being a major leaguer, not a chance. Being a transgender, well your choice. See there's free will. {a voluntary choice or decision}

 

[Silverhair]

It is not foreknowing something it is foreknowing someone. And correct, it is not the same as foresight.

Foreknowing what someone will do, you have a problem with God having foreknowledge of free will choices?

 

[Reformed1689]

When speaking of God it means that He knows something is going to happen and to Him it already has. That is because He is omniscient.

For us mere mortals it would be us talking about something that happened in the past as in I knew you would ask this type of question as you try to sound smart.

No, that is incorrect in the instance of Romans 8:29. It is not foresight. That doesn't make sense contextually nor lexically. It is talking about people he foreknew, it says nothing about what is going to happen or choices that will be made. That's not what it means. It is a knowing the person intimately. A choosing of them if you look at the context.

30.100 προβλέπομαιb; προγινώσκωb: to choose or select in advance of some other event—‘to choose beforehand, to select in advance.’
προβλέπομαιb: τοῦ θεοῦ περὶ ἡμῶν κρεῖττόν τι προβλεψαμένου ‘because God had chosen ahead of time an even better plan for us’ He 11:40. It is also possible to understand προβλέπομαι in He 11:40 as meaning ‘to decide in advance’ (compare the meanings in 30.84) or ‘to provide for’ (35.35).
προγινώσκωb: οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ ‘those whom he had chosen beforehand, he had already decided should become like his Son’ Ro 8:29. In Ro 8:29 προγινώσκω may also be understood as meaning ‘to know beforehand’ (28.6).
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 362.

 

[Reformed1689]

Foreknowing what someone will do, you have a problem with God having foreknowledge of free will choices?

Nope, but that is also not what Scripture says in Romans 8:29.

 

[Reformed1689]

Don't be insulting. You know what free will is, your just being contrarian again.

You being a major leaguer, not a chance. Being a transgender, well your choice. See there's free will. {a voluntary choice or decision}

Free Will, the way you are trying to portray it means you can choose anything and it will be, but that is not reality is it?

 

[Silverhair]

No, that is incorrect in the instance of Romans 8:29. It is not foresight. That doesn't make sense contextually nor lexically. It is talking about people he foreknew, it says nothing about what is going to happen or choices that will be made. That's not what it means. It is a knowing the person intimately. A choosing of them if you look at the context.

30.100 προβλέπομαιb; προγινώσκωb: to choose or select in advance of some other event—‘to choose beforehand, to select in advance.’
προβλέπομαιb: τοῦ θεοῦ περὶ ἡμῶν κρεῖττόν τι προβλεψαμένου ‘because God had chosen ahead of time an even better plan for us’ He 11:40. It is also possible to understand προβλέπομαι in He 11:40 as meaning ‘to decide in advance’ (compare the meanings in 30.84) or ‘to provide for’ (35.35).
προγινώσκωb: οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ ‘those whom he had chosen beforehand, he had already decided should become like his Son’ Ro 8:29. In Ro 8:29 προγινώσκω may also be understood as meaning ‘to know beforehand’ (28.6).
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 362.

you really can be such a dufus at times. What was your question?
"Just curious, what do you think foreknew means?" That is what I answered did I not.
When speaking of God it means that He knows something is going to happen and to Him it already has. That is because He is omniscient.

Now as to Rom 8:29 or should I say Rom 8:28-29. Is God omniscient, YES. Did God know who would trust in His son, YES. Does God have perfect knowledge of what a person will do with their free will, YES. Is God the cause of that person doing what they do with their free will, NO.

So those that GOD in His omniscience foreknew would freely choose His son were those that were predestined to be conformed to the Sons' image.

 

[Iconoclast]

what did he know about them?

Hello eg
In the Old Testament the word to know had to do with an intimate relationship even as such as husband and wife Adam knew his wife Eve and she conceived tconceived then a few verses later Adam knew his wife again and she conceived Joseph knew not marry until the birth of Jesus even with the prophet Jeremiah God says before I formed you in the room I knew you Of Jesus and even Jeremiah God tells them in Jeremiah one before I formed you in the womb I knew you and ord!inef you to be a prophet to the nations. So when God says for whom he did forelnow hes speaking of those that he said had an intimate knowledge of .

 

[Silverhair]

Nope, but that is also not what Scripture says in Romans 8:29.

Well it sure does not say that God picked them out before time as you would have it say.

What is the purpose of God? To save sinners, the lost.
Luk_19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

This fits nicely with another text:
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So when Paul writes about those who are called according to His purpose, (Rom 8:28) who do you think he is talking about? It would be those that God in His omniscience foreknew would, upon hearing the gospel message, freely come to Him.

Just as we see in
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Silverhair]

Free Will, the way you are trying to portray it means you can choose anything and it will be, but that is not reality is it?

That is a real dumb strawman comment thereFree will is the real ability to choose between two or more options.

Now I am sure you will take what I have said out of context but then you are a calvinist so you do not believe in free will so it's just that your predetermined to do this.

 

[Reformed1689]

That is a real dumb strawman comment there . Free will is the real ability to choose between two or more options.

Now I am sure you will take what I have said out of context but then you are a calvinist so you do not believe in free will so it's just that your predetermined to do this.

I do believe in free will.

 

[atpollard]

You can;t be personal and relation with a person unless they have free will.

God can love someone from before God created the universe (free will or lack of free will doesn’t enter into the picture when the person does not even exist yet).

PS. I loved my unborn daughter from the moment I saw her in a sonogram … does her free will enter into our relationship at that point?

 

[atpollard]

Fortunately, we have more than this one verse (or even this one chapter) to fill in the missing information about PERSON B that God does indeed give them the necessary information, the gospel, and that hearing it they can believe or disbelieve it is their choice

That would be redefining PERSON B as PERSON A since John 6:44-45 (No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.) defines those that have have learned from God as those that God has drawn.

PERSON B would be someone that has NOT been drawn by God, so redefining them as PERSON A is meaningless. We already stated what happens (according to scripture) to those that God has drawn. Where is your scripture for men that choose God without any “first cause” from God (that would be Pelagianism).

 

[atpollard]

If you want to go with the "total inability" view then you have to say that man also has no ability to sin on his own. Remember your the one's that say God is sovereign in such a way that nothing can or does happen that He does not control.

I spoke with God and YOU, personally, have a special dispensation with respect to Adam and original sin. So YOU are only damned because of YOUR inability to be perfect and because of the explicit sins which YOU have committed.

Do you feel better now?
It changes NOTHING!
You still needed a savior and your salvation still rests on Jesus Christ.
(It just renders a handful of scripture verses false).

 

[atpollard]

Is man depraved, YES, is he so depraved that he can not upon hearing the gospel message choose the follow Christ Jesus, NO.

That is the essence of semi-Pelagianism (man is sick and needs medicine, not dead and needs a miracle to save him) that forms the cornerstone of Classic Arminianism and makes a synergistic (‘God and man working together’) salvation ‘possible’.

Of course, I disagree. Dead men don’t ‘choose’ … God acts monergisticly and brings the dead to life so that they CAN respond. That is the essence of the Reformation and the Doctrines of Grace.

 

[Silverhair]

I do believe in free will.

But your version of free will is really not free will is it. The person can only do what they are allowed to do. If God decrees all things and unchangeably ordained whatever happens then please explain to me how a mere human could have a real free will. Even their greatest desire is decreed according to your view.

 

[Silverhair]

God can love someone from before God created the universe (free will or lack of free will doesn’t enter into the picture when the person does not even exist yet).

PS. I loved my unborn daughter from the moment I saw her in a sonogram … does her free will enter into our relationship at that point?

Is your unborn daughter omniscient? Your just throwing out a strawman argument.

 

[Silverhair]

That would be redefining PERSON B as PERSON A since John 6:44-45 (No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.) defines those that have have learned from God as those that God has drawn.

PERSON B would be someone that has NOT been drawn by God, so redefining them as PERSON A is meaningless. We already stated what happens (according to scripture) to those that God has drawn. Where is your scripture for men that choose God without any “first cause” from God (that would be Pelagianism).

I have stated many times what the first cause is, you just ignore it.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Man has no excuse, did you get that? That is one way

Joh 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Man is convicted by the Holy Spirit. That is another way.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
The gospel message. Look at that we have another way.

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Christ Jesus will draw all people. Now if you try to limit this then please explain the cross. And yet another way.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
And here we see how person B can become a person A. Notice they HEAR, they BELIEVE, they are SAVED

I have always maintained that man can not save themselves, but and this is where we differ man has the real ability to freely respond to the drawing of God and he has the same free ability to reject God.

Let me ask you this? If man has no real free will then why is all this necessary, why preach the cross or for that matter why did Christ Jesus have to suffer for our sins?

 

[Silverhair]

I spoke with God and YOU, personally, have a special dispensation with respect to Adam and original sin. So YOU are only damned because of YOUR inability to be perfect and because of the explicit sins which YOU have committed.

Do you feel better now?
It changes NOTHING!
You still needed a savior and your salvation still rests on Jesus Christ.
(It just renders a handful of scripture verses false).

Now you are just being insulting. Your just being foolish.

 

[Silverhair]

That is the essence of semi-Pelagianism (man is sick and needs medicine, not dead and needs a miracle to save him) that forms the cornerstone of Classic Arminianism and makes a synergistic (‘God and man working together’) salvation ‘possible’.

Of course, I disagree. Dead men don’t ‘choose’ … God acts monergisticly and brings the dead to life so that they CAN respond. That is the essence of the Reformation and the Doctrines of Grace.

Well your view just shows you refuse to trust or understand what the bible says.