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John:6:38-39
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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He was praying to the God of the Jews, inasmuch as he knew Him. He didn't have as much revelation as the "devout Jews" that came to Jerusalem on the Day Of Pentecost but none of them were saved until AFTER Peter preached, and even then only 3,000 of the more than 100,000 "devout" Jews were saved. So clearly the man was not regenerated/saved.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
First, to correct your errant thinking, regeneration does not equal salvation.
Second, remember that I am not arguing Cornelius was saved before Peter presented the Gospel to him.
Third, you must answer: Who is the God of the Jews?
You and others insist that Cornelius was a seeking Gentile with no knowledge of anything. You seek to use the fact that Cornelius was a Gentile as a proof text of a Gentile seeking God. However, you do so at the expense of the text of nearly the entire passage.
Clearly Cornelius was not as yet a believer in Christ, but, also clearly, he was a worshiper of the One, True, and Living God.
We see an answer to Cornelius' prayer (complete with the visitation of an angel)--a prayer prayed to the One, True, and Living God that he was already worshiping.
Cornelius was worshiping the One, True, and Living God in ignorance--hence God answering his prayer and reliving his ignorance through Peter.
Nevertheless, Cornelius was not what you claim him to be. The text of Acts 10 itself simply will never allow for your claims.
The Archangel
That is so key!!! So many people mistake that. Regeneration is a means to salvation.
savedbymercy
New Member
Too far? The scripture said he feared God, you believe it or you don't! A unsaved person does not fear God Rom 3:18 !
savedbymercy
New Member
Regeneration is being saved Titus 3:5 ! According to His Mercy He saved us ! And how was that according to Titus 3:5 ?
Archangel, we need to remember that Cornelius was alive during a translational period. Very possible he had the saving faith, just like Abraham. Very possible that God sent Peter to share with his "devout" follower, the good news. Letting him know that his faith in the future Messiah is *now faith in the Christ who came and redeemed us. I think it was fully possible the Cornelius was of God before the work of Christ. Then after Christ died for us, Peter was sent to share the news with one of God's people. Of Cornelius lived a under years before Christ, would this "devout God fearer" be saved by faith. If the answer is yes, then the answer must also be yes to the Cornelius we read about. Below is another post on this thread where I talked about this.
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Because mankind is born in BONDAGE to sin and is under the influence of Satan, regeneration has to precede faith.
If it was faith first that would be another gospel of salvation by works, because faith is believing, faith is a work of man, faith is a verb an action.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
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savedbymercy
New Member
mccree
Thats right, You see, the Gospel is sent as a Word of Salvation to the Saved, to them that Fear God. Notice Pauls words here as to who the Word of Salvation is sent to Acts 13:26
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Now back to Cornelius, would not he one that Feareth God ? Acts 10:2,22
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Well True to what is a stated principle in Acts 13:26, God sent to Cornelius a Word of Salvation, in Fact the Gospel of His Salvation Eph 1:13 !
God does not send the Gospel of ones Salvation to them if they are Lost ! Thats a contradiction ! In fact the Gospel is hid from them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3 !
Thats right, You see, the Gospel is sent as a Word of Salvation to the Saved, to them that Fear God. Notice Pauls words here as to who the Word of Salvation is sent to Acts 13:26
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Now back to Cornelius, would not he one that Feareth God ? Acts 10:2,22
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Well True to what is a stated principle in Acts 13:26, God sent to Cornelius a Word of Salvation, in Fact the Gospel of His Salvation Eph 1:13 !
God does not send the Gospel of ones Salvation to them if they are Lost ! Thats a contradiction ! In fact the Gospel is hid from them that are Lost 2 Cor 4:3 !
A regenerated person does.
savedbymercy
New Member
Yes ! I agree with that, since an unregenerate does not Rom 3:18
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Some self righteous folk dont believe it applied to them !
I can agree to that, but I do believe they take place at the same time. They are not separated by a time interval of four and a half days. This becomes a proof-text for some Calvinists that there can be a great gap between regeneration and salvation which just isn't so. They take place simultaneously.
Since regeneration is part of the salvation process which is basically one event, then what are you arguing? We can agree there is an "ordo salutis," but as mentioned already it is an event not a long drawn out process.
Jesus said to the woman at the well:
"Salvation is of the Jews." He was referring to Himself. That was pre-cross.
It was the Jews that crucified Christ; that rejected Him as Messiah.
John 1:11--He came to His own and his own received him not.
Thus post-cross and post-Pentecost who is the God of the Jews?
Who is the God of the Jews right now? Do they worship the same God we do? No, of course not! They have rejected the Messiah, and do not worship the triune Godhead. They have rejected Christ. This is a post-Cross event. The only way to salvation was through Christ. The only way to be regenerated was through Christ. This is well after Pentecost.
There is no regeneration without the Spirit of God
The Spirit of God came upon the Cornelius and the other believing Gentiles later under the preaching of Peter.
Rahab sought the truth. Ruth sought the truth. All they had was the testimony of the deliverance of the nation of Israel, and the testimony of a woman respectively. God seeks out those who also seek Him.
The text speaks for itself.
To read regeneration into this text is ridiculous. They were not regenerated until after Peter came and preached the gospel and then the Holy Spirit came.
In some oblique way he was a worshiper of the God of the Jews, whoever that may be. All those Jews were not saved. He was seeking the truth but had not received it yet. God was leading him in the direction of the truth, and sent Peter to him.
If he was regenerated, there would be no reason for Peter to go. God just could have continued that process without Peter. It is a ridiculous position to take. Regeneration took place after Peter came, after the gospel was preached.
Was he worshiping the triune Godhead? No.
Was he worshiping Christ, the only way to heaven? No.
He was worshiping the God of the religion that rejected Christ and were now enemies of the cross of Christ. They persecuted Christians. In every missionary journey that Paul took, he went to the Jews first. He went into the synagogues first. He preached to the Jews. They were unsaved inspite of the knowledge that they had.
Even with Saul of Tarsus, he had a vision before he was saved. It was not the vision that saved Saul but his obedience and submission to Christ as Lord. Christ appeared to Saul while he was yet unsaved.
Cornelius was worshiping what he hoped to be was the true God. He didn't have enough revelation. Today it is like a pagan calling out: "God if there is a God, show me who you are and the right path."
I believe God will answer such a prayer in the same way or a similar way that he did for Cornelius. Cornelius was seeking God with the little revelation he had, and God gave him more.
One thing we can no for sure: He was not regenerated! He had not the Spirit of God! He had never heard the gospel, nor about Christ, nor enough revelation to be regenerated. There is not enough evidence in this passage to claim that this man was regenerated.
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BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
The gospel still needs to be preached to regenerated children of God so they can learn how they are saved. "...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10 b). Notice the gospel in this verse does not bring immortality and life, rather it merely sheds light on what is already there. If a rich man pays a pauper's debt and opens up a million-dollar account in his name, the deed is an accomplished fact, it is done, no matter whether the destitute person hears about it for awhile or not.
One must be born before he can be saved. Some may have been saved from drowning, others from a burning building, or from disease. This "being saved" could not have occurred if they had not been born first, thus it is with all who are born again.
We read of Cornelius that he "gave much alms"...Some people may argue that this was the work of the flesh, an attempt on the part of a heathen man to earn salvation from God. If such were the case, then why did God, instead of condemning Cornelius for his carnality, rather commend him, saying, "Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God (Acts 10:4)?
But this verse is saying regeneration leads to salvation...it is not the same thing as salvation.
"he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, BY (this is the key word) the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit"
"by" (the Greek "dia") means "through", "by means of", "using".
This verse is literally saying "he saved us and he did that through the use of regeneration".
For instance, I have to go THROUGH or USE Midtown Tunnel to get to Manhattan but Midtown Tunnel IS NOT Manhattan...it is a MEANS to Manhattan.
savedbymercy
New Member
Sorry you lack understanding, that verse plainly is saying how they were saved according to mercy !
I believe you have "another gospel" and not the gospel that Paul preached if this is what you believe. (Gal.1:8).
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us it is the power of God."
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Your philosophy nullifies the Great Commission:
"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
The command is to preach the gospel to every creature to all the unsaved, not to the regenerated.
--You have a false message, a false doctrine.
One is saved only through the gospel:
1Pe 1:23-25
(23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
(24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
(25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--The new birth is through the Word of God, through the Gospel.
One cannot be born again without the Gospel; it is an impossibility.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
--It is the gospel by which you are saved. There is no other way.
It is the gospel that both regenerates and saves. There is no other way.
It just occurred to me that you may be a Catholic. Baptismal regeneration is one of the oldest heresies known to mankind. Water can't save anyone. It is just a combination of two hydrogen atoms to one oxygen atoms. It gets you wet and that is all. There is nothing salvic in water. It cannot wash away sins.
Many people do good works and go straight to hell. Good works don't save.
Sincerity doesn't save.
Only Jesus saves. Only Jesus can regenerate a person. Without Christ there is no hope, no forgiveness, no eternal life, no hope of heaven; there is nothing but eternal damnation.
This man did not have Christ.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Not according to Jesus:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
The new birth – regeneration – must precede the preaching of the Word.
In order for a man to ‘see’ Jesus lifted up, his sight must first be renewed before he is able to see spiritually.
It is only through the supernatural act of creation by the Spirit that the once spiritually blind can now see the spiritual King of Kings.
All the miracles of Jesus proved this point.
First, Jesus heals the infirmity.
Once healed, the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, the dead rise.
The cause is God's efficacious omnipotence.
The seeing, the hearing, the walking, the resurrection are the results of this power directed to the specific individual.
Likewise, once a new heart is given, believing is the result.
For it is with the heart that man believes. (Romans 10:10)
In 1 Peter 1:3, Peter gives all the glory of our new birth to God the Father:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
There is no cause of our new birth outside the merciful will of the Father.
Let us examine 1 Peter 1:23 in its context:
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Peter speaks of believing in God (v. 21), faith in God (v. 21), and obeying the truth [of the Word of God] (v. 22).
Verse 23 addresses the birth of faith by the Word which promotes ‘unfeigned love of the brethren.’
By comparing Scripture with Scripture we discover before faith can be born, the heart must be recreated in order to receive the Word.
This truth is taught in the Parable of the 4 Soils. It was the fourth soil, the ‘good ground’ that brought forth much fruit.
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Scripture does not commend the heart of unregenerate men.
Rather Scripture condemns man’s heart.
Lydia proves the need for a spiritual vivification of the heart in order to ‘attend’ the Word of God.
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
And then there is this:
And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
First comes the new heart.
Faith and repentance always follow.
Jesus didn't say that, neither does the Word of God.
A person gets "renewed" when the put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously. The story or conversation with Nicodemus doesn't end with verse 12. It goes all the way to verse 21.
Then verse 22 says:
Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
The miracles proved the deity of Christ and didn't demonstrate anything about regeneration. Allegory isn't your strong point.
Yes, that is when salvation happens. Did you read verse 9 as well. He hears the gospel, believes the gospel and then is both regenerated and saved.
And so should! Who do you think he should give the glory to? Did you have another person in mind??
Cause: The love of God, the mercy of God, God's grace,
Why did God reach out and grant that I should be born again? For the reasons stated--His mercy, grace, love, kindness, etc. That is the CAUSE.
This is Protestant's Augustinian philosophy or perhaps his own philosophy, but it does not come from the Bible and is not found in this passage of Scripture.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Now for context read the rest:
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
--One is born again by the Word of God, particularly the gospel as it specifies in verse 25. There must be an understanding of the Word, of the Gospel, from which comes faith.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--Thus gospel, and then faith in the gospel, produces regeneration.
One is born again through the Word of God. 1Pet.1:23 is undeniable.
Only by a twisting of Scripture do you come to this conclusion.
It is a parable of the preparation of the soil or heart. It doesn't speak about regeneration or faith. You application is nonsense.
Soil cannot be regenerated. What is regenerated is that which is planted in the soil.
There is nothing about regeneration in the story of Lydia. You are reading into Scripture that which is not there.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
--Details concerning her salvation are absent. "The Lord opened her heart" is all we know. He opened her heart to believe on the Lord. It says nothing about the details of regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc., etc. "Opened her heart" is fairly vague.
Nonsense. These were already disciples; already believers in the Lord.
You have no argument at all.
??? According to mercy BY regeneration. This verse is literally saying "he saved us because of his mercy and he did that through the use of regeneration".
This is why you don't discuss Greek with someone who barely understands the English language. You just proved you lack exegetical ability...and obviously grammar.
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savedbymercy
New Member
Again, you lack understanding!
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