JOHN MACARTHUR AND ASSURANCE

[Calminian]

have you read Grace Awakening by Chuck Swindoll?

No. I'll look into it.

 

[Yeshua1]

No. I'll look into it.

I think John and Chuck could learn from each other on this!

 

[HankD]

I just do not see it as being lord of all or Lord of none black and white!
What is his teaching on blood of Christ?

do a google on "MacArthur and the blood of Christ".

 

[Calminian]

do a google on "MacArthur and the blood of Christ".

Here you go. First hit.

The Blood of Christ

 

[HankD]

Here you go. First hit.

The Blood of Christ

There are others who say that there’s something magical in the blood, there’s something in the blood itself that washes sin away, when the Scripture teaches it was the death of Christ that atoned for sin, and He shed His literal blood in sacrificial evidence of the pouring out of His life for sin. But there was nothing magic about that blood itself that could wash sin. And so, this heresy has begun to develop, strangely enough.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Calminian]

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

MacArthur cites all these passages also. The disagreement is regarding what scripture means by the shedding of blood. He says it a metonym for death, and I agree with him. Bloodshed is not referring to simply bleeding which can happen without death. It's a term that means death by killing.

Take Genesis 9 for instance, regarding the death penalty for bloodshed.

"Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed..."

Does this mean if one kills another by strangulation, but doesn't spill any blood he's exempt? Of course not. The passage is speaking of murder. Whoever kills the innocent, will be killed himself. Killing and bloodshed are synonymous.

In fact, I would say MacArthur is right, it's borderline heresy to understand bloodshed as merely bleeding. If you believe all that's needed is the blood and the blood has some magical quality, then Christ didn't need to die. He just needed to donate some blood.

 

[HankD]

MacArthur cites all these passages also. The disagreement is regarding what scripture means by the shedding of blood. He says it a metonym for death, and I agree with him. Bloodshed is not referring to simply bleeding which can happen without death. It's a term that means death by killing.

Take Genesis 9 for instance, regarding the death penalty for bloodshed.

"Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed..."

Does this mean if one kills another by strangulation, but doesn't spill any blood he's exempt? Of course not. The passage is speaking of murder. Whoever kills the innocent, will be killed himself. Killing and bloodshed are synonymous.

In fact, I would say MacArthur is right, it's borderline heresy to understand bloodshed as merely bleeding. If you believe all that's needed is the blood and the blood has some magical quality, then Christ didn't need to die. He just needed to donate some blood.

i totally disagree - without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
both of you are wrong.
LORDSHIP SALVATION IS ONE THING BUT TO SPEAK THUS OF THE CLEANSING POWER OF THE BLOOD IS WRONG!

The scripture DOES NOT SAY we are cleansed by His death but by His BLOOD.
The scripture DOES NOR SAY we are washed in His death but in His BLOOD.

 

[Calminian]

i totally disagree - without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
both of you are wrong....

MacArthur believes this and so do I. With out the shedding of blood (Christ's death on the cross), there is no remission of sins.

What we disagree with is that this is a reference to blood apart from death. That there is something in the blood that's magical. It's about Christ's death. I agree with Mac on this. I think you're dead wrong.

 

[HankD]

MacArthur believes this and so do I. With out the shedding of blood (Christ's death on the cross), there is no remission of sins.

What we disagree with is that this is a reference to blood apart from death. That there is something in the blood that's magical. It's about Christ's death. I agree with Mac on this. I think you're dead wrong.

i DID NOT USE THE WORD MAGIC OR MAGICAL you and MacArthur did PLEASE STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

The correct word for referring to the qualitative value of the blood of CHRIST is the word PRECIOUS

1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

[Calminian]

i DID NOT USE THE WORD MAGIC OR MAGICAL you and MacArthur did PLEASE STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I didn't say you did. MacArthur said there is nothing magical in the blood. It's about Christ's death. So you agree with him.

The correct word for referring to the qualitative value of the blood of CHRIST is the word PRECIOUS

Indeed. The precious blood, meaning the precious sacrifice of his life he made on the cross. Had he just donated blood it wouldn't have worked and wouldn't have had any value to us. It's his death that was precious.

You need to listen to MacArthur. I gave you a link with him explaining his position. It's crystal clear.

And you agree with him, there is nothing magical in the blood apart from his death.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

[Luk 1:68 ESV] 68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people

[Heb 9:12 ESV] 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Praise be to God. I have been redeemed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

 

[Calminian]

[Luk 1:68 ESV] 68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people

[Heb 9:12 ESV] 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Praise be to God. I have been redeemed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

I agree. MacArthur does too.

 

[HankD]

I agree. MacArthur does too.

not by me he doesn't - I'm waiting for him to retract his error.

 

[Calminian]

not by me he doesn't - I'm waiting for him to retract his error.

Nothing to retract, or prove. He's been preaching the blood of Christ for years. On the link I provided, he offered clips proving this. He's beyond reproach.

It's you that has to prove your accusation. You haven't done so yet.

And surely you don't disagree with him, that his bloodshed is referring to his death and not merely his blood alone? There are wackos promoting the idea that there's something intrinsic in the blood itself, apart from the death it caused. This is the cultic idea he was addressing.

 

[Steven_15]

You can know. MacArthur pr seaches this truth. 1 John is the key to this whole subject. He says toward the end of the epistle, "These things I have written to you.....that you may know that you have eternal life..."

Security is always real and never changes. Assurance can change when one falls into sin. Paul said, "test yourselves" whether you being the faith. Does your life show a change?

There is an antinomian movement in the Church the promotes past profession security, that one can be assured of salvation based on profess that doesn't produce fruit. That's what James warned about. That's what MacArthur is rightly warning about.

"These things I have written to you.....that you may know that you have eternal life..."

1John 4:15: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God".

Faith is the assurance one has eternal life.

Security is always real and never changes. Assurance can change when one falls into sin.

Those who trust in their works to be assured, have a false assurance of their security.

There is an antinomian movement in the Church the promotes past profession security, that one can be assured of salvation based on profess that doesn't produce fruit.

Romans 10:9: "that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

Is your fruit sinless?

 

[HankD]

Nothing to retract, or prove. He's been preaching the blood of Christ for years. On the link I provided, he offered clips proving this. He's beyond reproach.

It's you that has to prove your accusation. You haven't done so yet.

And surely you don't disagree with him, that his bloodshed is referring to his death and not merely his blood alone? There are wackos promoting the idea that there's something intrinsic in the blood itself, apart from the death it caused. This is the cultic idea he was addressing.

ive only accused him of being wrong
but i guess I'm a "wacko".

ah yes an ad hominem, that certainly proves you are right,

 

[Calminian]

ive only accused him of being wrong
but i guess I'm a "wacko".

ah yes an ad hominem, that certainly proves you are right,

You said it not me. Now you're falsely accusing me like you are MacArthur. He has always preached the blood of Christ. You still have not proven he doesn't.

And I never said you were wacko (I was referring the heretics MarArthur was referring to in the link). But if you believe there's something special in the blood and it's not about his death, you're flat-out wrong. I won't go so far as to say wacko nor heretical. You'd have go much further.

 

[Calminian]

1John 4:15: "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God".

Faith is the assurance one has eternal life.



Those who trust in their works to be assured, have a false assurance of their security.



Romans 10:9: "that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved".

Is your fruit sinless?

By no means is my fruit perfect. And I have lacked assurance at times when I fall into seasons of sin. I know the true Christian perseveres.

1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.​

When I'm going though sin and unrepentant and unconfessing, passages like this come to mind. As does the passage below.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.​

Assurance can waiver because it depends on me. Security never does, as it depends on God.

Heb. 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,​

Notice the tenses in this sentence. We have already become, if we hold until the end. True Christians persevere.

 

[HankD]

You said it not me. Now you're falsely accusing me like you are MacArthur. He has always preached the blood of Christ. You still have not proven he doesn't.

And I never said you were wacko (I was referring the heretics MarArthur was referring to in the link). But if you believe there's something special in the blood and it's not about his death, you're flat-out wrong.

yes i do as do consider the blood of Christ special distinct from His death as do the scripture as has been shown.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.,

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[Calminian]

yes i do as do consider the blood of Christ special distinct from His death.....

Okay, fine. None of the verses you provided highlighted or even mentioned this distinction. If you really believe this distinction exists, please provide the biblical evidence.