Well, then don't shop anymore if the people working in stores are not perfect. Don't listen to any music if the band is not sinless. Don't ride a train if the tracks were worked on by sinners or if a sinner drives the train or there are sinners as passengers! Don't turn on a radio or use a phone...etc etc. I prefer to chose the good and leave the evil within reason. If I expected any preacher or church or business or government to be without sin, I would only be kidding myself. You were asked twice to name a few preachers you recommend and listen to. We wait.
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John MacArthur, please remove the plank from your eye
- Thread starter Humble Disciple
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Please note the word mystery…
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 3:20
Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4
If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?
Why the ado?
Because you keep repeating it as if it was gospel truth from the bible.
You prove my point by the scripture you cited:
"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:
and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." - Revelation 3:20
Stars are the churches' angels.
Candlesticks are the churches.
Says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the churches representing seven ages.
Please show the actual bible verse that says the churches represent seven historical ages.
The church has had its changes through history…
Messianic
Martyr - Foxes has the persecutions as ten
Orthodox - A Pyrgos or Pyrgus (Greek: Πύργος, "tower")
Catholic - Jezebel control
Doctrine based Protestant - The Baptist church appeared about this time
Revival based Protestant
Independent
And in reading history - Comparing with Revelation - The shoe fits the horse. In the day and time in which we live most big churches are Independent. Notice the difference of the first two churches where the Messianic separated themselves from the Gentile church…
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. - Galatians 2
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Again, you use no scripture that actually says the churches in Revelation 1-3 represent seven historical eras.
It is just a teaching that makes sense to you and someone you respect taught it to you.
Someone you respect taught it to you?
My beginnings were in revival. Back in those days my pastor had no problems finding wonderful evangelist for revival. As the revivals began to dissipate away I got me a Virginia Tech library card and began to study history. My favorite author from that study was John Bunyan, who wrote an enormous amount of good books. I could find very little interest in godliness in my generation, from there I began to wonder what was ahead for me. It is of my belief that we are full fledge in the Laodicean church age and it is almost as if our value is in our career and material possessions.
OK that is your path and experience but where is the bible verse that says the seven churches in Revelation 1-3 represent seven historical ages?
Just like what this thread is about, Pastor MacArthur backs up what he says most of the time with the bible.
Please note the word mystery…
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 3:20
Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4
Mystery - Strongs - μυστήριον mystḗrion, moos-tay'-ree-on;
- hidden thing, secret, mystery
- generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
- a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
- a hidden purpose or counsel - secret will
1. of men
2. of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass - Revelation 1:1
So the churches, therefore, were to come to pass in history, and Christ wanted to address the issues that would come upon the church.
You make the "must be perfect claim!" It is your strawperson argument, totally worthless. Pay no attention to those that misrepresent truth.
Right Icon, you follow JM while I follow scripture.
Note this poster questions the qualifications of anyone who disagrees with Calvinism. What a prize!
Third time you make the verifiably false claim that since everyone misses the mark, we should not seek truth. John MacArthur is a false teacher, which I demonstrated with two specific posts. You say "taint so" in twaddleze.
Let's take a look at one of Dr. John MacArthur's doctrines claimed to be based on scripture:
Do any of the cited verses actually say anything about "Irresistible Grace?" Nope Recall the words of scripture, false teachers secretly introduce destructive heresies.
We teach that in Adam’s sin of disobedience to the revealed will and Word of God, man lost his innocence, incurred the penalty of spiritual and physical death, became subject to the wrath of God, and became inherently corrupt and utterly incapable of choosing or doing that which is acceptable to God apart from divine grace. With no recuperative powers to enable him to recover himself, man is hopelessly lost. Man’s salvation is thereby wholly of God’s grace through the redemptive work of our Lord Jesus Christ (Genesis 2:16-17; 3:1-19; John 3:36; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 2:13-14; 1 John 1:8).
Does the statement highlighted in "Red" say "apart from divine IRRESISTIBLE GRACE?" Nope. But is that the hidden message? You bet. Thus the carefully crafted statement can be taken as absolutely true, God's grace being His "General and Special Revelation."
Do any of the cited verses actually say anything about "Irresistible Grace?" Nope Recall the words of scripture, false teachers secretly introduce destructive heresies.
Let's take a look at another of Dr. John MacArthur's doctrines claimed to be based on scripture:
Election. We teach that election is the act of God by which, before the foundation of the world, He chose in Christ those whom He graciously regenerates, saves, and sanctifies (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 1:1-2).
Here we find the false doctrine individuals were chosen by God before the foundation of the world. This is based on Ephesians 1:4 which clearly says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The issue of course is whether this election was corporate, in choosing Christ as His Redeemer, God corporately choose all those His Redeemer would redeem, or was an individual election as taught by Calvinism and John MacArthur.
Why the individual election view is precluded by scripture should need little explanation.
Election. We teach that election is the act of God by which, before the foundation of the world, He chose in Christ those whom He graciously regenerates, saves, and sanctifies (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 1:1-2).
Here we find the false doctrine individuals were chosen by God before the foundation of the world. This is based on Ephesians 1:4 which clearly says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The issue of course is whether this election was corporate, in choosing Christ as His Redeemer, God corporately choose all those His Redeemer would redeem, or was an individual election as taught by Calvinism and John MacArthur.
Why the individual election view is precluded by scripture should need little explanation.
1 Peter 2:9-10 says (NASB95)
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
Since everyone individually chosen by God (our election for salvation) was once "not a people" chosen by God, and once "had not received mercy" we were chosen individually after we lived as "children of wrath." Ephesians 2:3But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
I have provided irrefutable evidence from scripture that some of John MacArthur's views are unbiblical.
Attempting to disparage me in order to deflect from bogus biblical doctrine was predictable.
Oh? Let's look at that. ( I agree that the Calvinist stuff that creeps in to his material is wrong)
I think the quote below is the one you offered as this proof...
"We teach that in Adam’s sin of disobedience to the revealed will and Word of God, man lost his innocence, incurred the penalty of spiritual and physical death, became subject to the wrath of God, and became inherently corrupt and utterly incapable of choosing or doing that which is acceptable to God apart from divine grace."
Looks fine to me. That would be why Jesus died! He made a way for us to be able to do right! That was not talking about after getting saved. Methinks you protest too much.
Looks like you read Matthew 23:13 as the people "entering" the kingdom were not actually seeking God or doing something acceptable to God. Not how it reads...
Then of course you read "divine grace" to not read "irresistible grace" the "I" of the TULIP. Thus he secretly introduced his Calvinism, which you apparently did not realize.
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