John the Baptist

[Pastor Larry]

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

This verse, IMO, does not support Universalism which teaches that all people will eventually be saved through the universal redemption of Jesus. Therefore, when someone quotes this verse in reference to the drawing ministry of God the Father, it does not make them a Universalist.

This verse is similar to Hebrews 9:22 where the author tells us, "...without shedding of blood is no remission."(KJV) The blood has been shed; there can be no doubt, and that, again IMO, is the "drawing element" mentioned in John 6:44.

God has given us Jesus Christ and His shed blood, all those who are drawn to Christ as Saviour will be lifted up as God has promised.

Your last paragraph is exactly right, and is exactly the point that the verse makes, and that RC made. Those drawn will be lifted up.

But the problem is that it also affirms the opposite: those not lifted up were not drawn. The blood shed (that we agree on) was not a "drawing element." Heb 9:22 has no similarity whatsoever to this verse.

This verse draws a circle around those drawn and those lifted up. They are the same. If you believe that all men without exception are drawn, then you must also believe that all men without exception are raised up, or else deny the teaching of the verse.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by webdog:
Explain how man ALWAYS chooses evil.

I'm not sure if your question is directed at me, but I do not believe that man "always" chooses evil.

Joshua chose to serve the Lord in Joshua 24:15.
Joshua 24:15 ...but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (KJV)

The people in I Kings 18 chose to follow God after Elijah called down fire from heaven.
1 Kings 18:39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.(KJV)


Matthew chose to leave his tax collecting and follow Jesus.

Peter chose to leave his fishing and follow Jesus.

The Philippian jailer chose to trust the Lord.

I chose to trust the Lord.

If you are saved, you chose to trust the Lord.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If you believe that all men without exception are drawn, then you must also believe that all men without exception are raised up, or else deny the teaching of the verse.

Your assertion of what I believe is faulty; it is mere circular logic. I do not believe that this verse is teaching that all men, without exception, are drawn, therefore, I do not believe that all men, without exception, are raised up.

I believe that all men, without exception, are given an opportunity to be saved.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

John 1:9 That [Jesus] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)

All men are given the same opportunity to experience the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not all men choose to accept His mercy and grace.
Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (KJV)

The strait gate is open and available to all who make a conscious, deliberate decision to walk through it. It is my responsibility to be attracted or drawn to the redemption that has been provided.

Hebrews 9:22 is similar in that the blood of Christ has been shed; it is a done deal. But, I still have to place my faith and trust in His shed blood in order to take activate the process of the remission of my sins.

It is similar to John 6:44 because God has set everything in order for us to be drawn to Christ. That drawing is available for all, but I still have to choose to respond to this drawing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

I wasn't referring "you" specifically but the "you" that believe that this refers to all men being drawn. That is the typical position here on the board from the arminians.

But your last paragraph is confusing. You say the "drawing is available for all" as if it is a pile we go and take some out of. That seems out of place. Drawing is an action that God does, not something God makes available for people who want it. 6:44 says nothing about God "setting everything in order for us to be drawn to Christ" but rather says that "God draws." Those are two entirely different things. One is what the verse says; the other is not.

 

[rc]

Pastor Bob,
Are we prescientists?

but I still have to choose to respond to this drawing.

It does not say that in 6.44 Bob.
It says that they WILL respond to His drawing, this is implied by the preceding phrase of the verse; NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father DRAWS Him. If God draws the man, he has been ENABLED, if He doesn't draw him, he therefore is NOT ABLE. So it is implied that the drawing are to the elect. In v. 37 Jesus said ALL that the father GIVES me WILL come to me. Yes, you do have to respond, but the essence of the verse implies that if you are abled, you WILL respond. This shows that God doesn't FORCE you, but by His enabling, you by your FREE WILL, NOW has been enlightened and WILL choose Him.
Those who He hasn't enabled have not been drawn by God.

The Hebrews verse does not have any systematically exegetical rule that allows any reason for it to have any contextual weight on this verse at all.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Drawing is an action that God does, not something God makes available for people who want it.

I respectfully disagree. The truth, as I see it, is that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God makes salvation possible for any who will come to Christ.

God gave us His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him can be saved. It is not a pile that we go to and take some out of; it is a tree that we go to and take advantage of God's free gift of eternal life.

Mt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

No where does Jesus teach that God "drags" us to salvation. Jesus teaches us that the truth is available and all who choose to act upon what they hear are saved.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Originally posted by rc:
It says that they WILL respond to His drawing, this is implied by the preceding phrase of the verse; NO MAN CAN come to me unless the Father DRAWS Him.

No, sir, I do not see the verse saying this at all. I will post again for convenience sake:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

This verse does not say that all who are drawn willcome to Christ; it is saying that all who have come to Christ have been drawn of the Father. There is no way to conclude that everyone drawn has come.

Again, the confusion lies in the conclusions that one has arrived at regarding the "drawing."

 

[BobRyan]

Drawing is an action that God does, not something God makes available for people who want it.

Originally posted by Pastor_Bob:

I respectfully disagree. The truth, as I see it, is that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God makes salvation possible for any who will come to Christ.

...

Nowhere does Jesus teach that God "drags" us to salvation. Jesus teaches us that the truth is available and all who choose to act upon what they hear are saved.

While I can always agree with a fellow Arminian making our case -- I would respectfully point out that God IS the one that does the drawing!

In John 12:32 we have God's promise "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND to ME". He draws - but HE draws ALL mankind (the unqualified ALL).

So just as God "convicts the WORLD of sin righteousness and judgment" John 16 and just as "God so Loved the WORLD -- yes really!" John 3:16 -- so also - God DRAWs ALL for God is not willing for ANY to perish.

OF course then free will is ENABLED by that drawing and the FEW of Matt 7 CHOOSE life while the MANY of Matt 7 reject the Savior.

Still - God does the drawing and He draws ALL --

That Drawing is what ENABLES free will - it ENABLES choice in what would otherwise be the Romans 3 condition of total depravity where NNE seeks after God.

Would you agree to that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[rc]

Don't put so much weight on words that are NOT IN THE BIBLE Bob.

Whosoever is not in John 3.16 in the REAL text... Greek.

Come on Bob 2Peter 3.9 is talking about those who he is writing to. Follow the PRONOUNS. God will not end the earth, HE is patient toward ALL? ... no, YOU. He will not end the earth till the full number of the elect have come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to YOU, BELOVED.


2 Peter 3:8-9 8 But do not overlook this one fact, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.


1 Peter 1:1 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are ELECT ....

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Brothers,

I regret that I am unable to continue this discussion. My wife and I are taking a group of our teens to Mexico. We are leaving at 8:00 tomorrow morning. With prayer meeting tonight in 2 hours, I have to leave the debate in your hands. I hope to return when we get home a week from Friday.

Please pray for us.

Pastor Bob

Church Web Page

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Thomas Cassidy, your condescending attitude toward other Christians is appalling, especially for a 'man of god'.

Let's see. You dragged my name into the discussion by falsely accusing me of playing word games, and somehow that makes me wrong. You have a very odd way of looking at things, don't you? Oh, also, I have never claimed to be a "man of god" (whether or not you capitalize the word).

I am very hurt by our board for allowing my salvation to be questioned.

Except, of course, nobody questioned your salvation.

Also, I am very, very angry at rc and Thomas Cassidy for their treatment of those who disagree with them and anger is not a Christlike attitude. I apologize and repent for the feelings I have for both of you and others this morning.

It is better to lose the attitude then to have to keep repenting of the same sins over and over again.

 

[rc]

Again, the confusion lies in the conclusions that one has arrived at regarding the "drawing."

What causes the confusion is the focus on the one word instead of the whold verse.

This verse draws a circle around those drawn and those lifted up. They are the same. If you believe that all men without exception are drawn, then you must also believe that all men without exception are raised up, or else deny the teaching of the verse.

Amen Larry.

 

[rc]

but I do not believe that man "always" chooses evil.

This is just a plain outright affront to scripture. Did you read my post on page 4?
How could you post this response after that?

You verses are narrative. It does not explain WHY they did them. You can not use general to explain the explicit, but the explicit must rule the general.

If God says explicitly man can not do good without a change of heart and you find NARRATIVES that says i.e. "a man "chose" God". The explicit rules, and the narrative must be judged IN LIGHT of the explicit. Thus the verse would be understood in light of the explicit that God changed his heart in order so that he could "choose" to serve the Lord. Therefore there is no contradiction to scripture.

 

[Wes Outwest]

This verse draws a circle around those drawn and those lifted up. They are the same. If you believe that all men without exception are drawn, then you must also believe that all men without exception are raised up, or else deny the teaching of the verse.

Just what do you think the FATHER has done?
He established His only begotten son to be the Christ!
He established HIS word as the means by which man gains faith in God then made it possible for all to hear His Word!
He established human Faith in HIM as the reason for saving the human into everlasting life, then made it easy for EVERY human to believe unto faith!
He Gave his son to be the atoning sacrifice that satisfies the penalty for sin, thus robbing sin of its power to kill!
He has given us promise after promise after promise in which we are to have faith, and such faith that enables us to do HIS will!
He has revealed glimpses of life in Eternity so that we have something to look forward to!

I'd say that God does a pretty good job of drawing all mankind! WORKS FOR ME! I BELIEVE!

I believe that WHOSOEVER believeth in HIM, shall not Perish, but have everlasting life! I also believe that not all will believe, therefore your premise about the text of the verse is bogus from the 'get-go'! Your literal interpretation is bogus!

 

[dianetavegia]

It is better to lose the attitude then to have to keep repenting of the same sins over and over again.

Thank you for your advice, Thomas, but I am not a person who GETS angry. That's why I have withdrawn from this discussion.

I think Pastor Bob well said exactly what I was attempting to say. My terminology is that of a housewife and not a theology student or minister.


God Bless

 

[Bob Krajcik]

He will not end the earth till the full number of the elect have come to repentance.

I agree with this, and find that it is of major importance towards understanding these things, and understanding why there is difference that can not be reconciled between two different sides, the one side man centered, and the other Christ centered.

Under the economy of grace, the objects of salvation are not chosen by partiality, as if man must do something to be chosen, but instead, man is chosen, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. Under law there is a legal system of justice and reward, but not so with grace. God owes no man anything. There is nothing that man has to give that could obligate God to save them, as opposed to another that did not respond. The hardest of men, the vilest offender, is easy for the love of God to conquer, therefore those that would be Christ centered would have no hindrance towards reaching forth with the gospel. God has a plan and perfectly carries it out that all His people shall be saved. That certain and particular ones are chosen is easily shown from the Scriptures, regardless of the reception some might give such a thing. Men might think to have a say, as if they were the deciding one, as if man is central regarding determining the identity of those saved, as if God would be partial to them because of faith, but instead, God is central and God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy on some of every sort of person, whereby as many as were ordained to eternal life shall be saved by grace through faith (Acts 13:48), faith of the operation of God. Here are representative verses showing the elect are certain and particular ones, chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth:

2 Timothy 2:19 (KJV) ...The Lord knoweth them that are his...

John 13:18 (KJV) I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen...

Exodus 33:17 (KJV) ...thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Luke 10:20 (KJV) ...rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee...

Galatians 1:15 (KJV) ...called me by his grace,

John 10:14 (KJV) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep...

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Being trained IN THE WORDS... get that? Know Greek and the rules of grammer is what Paul meant by being trained in the WORDS....

Don't put so much weight on words that are NOT IN THE BIBLE....
Whosoever is not in John 3.16 in the REAL text... Greek.

Dear brother, I appreciate your knowledge and zeal, yet here, IMO, it appears that it is needful, not to reject what has been handed down in English, but instead for those that use them to continue learning and searching the words that are written. If Greek is all that is REAL, there is few found that could search the REAL to see if those things were so.

Should those with the doctrine saying English is not REAL but Greek is REAL avoid those that are non-Greek (Rom 16:17)? I think not, but they should instead see if a translation would be the word of God, the REAL word. If there is cause to reject what is in the English, that has not been discovered by me, and neither has a reason been discovered that I have heard to say any differently, as if the English did not qualify as being a legitimate rendering to be referred to as what is written, and profitable. I will abstain from commenting further in this thread about this important matter.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I believe that WHOSOEVER believeth in HIM, shall not Perish, but have everlasting life!

We all believe that.

I also believe that not all will believe, therefore your premise about the text of the verse is bogus from the 'get-go'! Your literal interpretation is bogus!

You haven't even addressed the verse. The verse that all who are drawn will be raised up. Belief is the result of drawing and the antecedent of being raised up. IN the context of John 6 (putting the passage together), you have all who are drawn then believe and then are raised up. There is no difference between the "drawn" and the "raised up." In the verse, it is the same group of people.

 

[rc]

Bob,
I said it that way just for emphasis. Though I do believe you do get a better grasp for what is being said from the greek. And you do avoid MANY but not ALL controversies by knowing the Greek..
i.e. John 3.16's "whosoever" pill...

Of course God's word in the English has just as much power as the Greek.

 

[Wes Outwest]

The 'drawn' precedes the being 'raise up'! Those who are drawn (through belief) are to be raise up! The cause and affect!

The drawn occurs in this natural life, the raising up occurs after the death of the natural life.