John the Baptist

[dianetavegia]

Scriptures are clear that the will of God is that none perish but that all would come to repentance. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is freely given to all who put their trust in Him.


John 6:"28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent...40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."


Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach."

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."


Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Jesus came to give His life for the world and if you believe scripture is saying the "world" was in reference to the elect of God you have got serious problems. First, you are reading into the text. Secondly, the context of the passage refutes that view, and finally, other Scriptures address the world as being MANKIND AS A WHOLE.

 

[rc]

Those who are drawn (through belief)

Don't add words to scripture Wes. It doesn't say that.

NO MAN CAN come to me unless the father draws HIM and I will raise HIM up on the last day.

This is another CHAIN.
The ones RAISED are the EXACT ones DRAWN. The EXACT ones DRAWN are the EXACT one ENABLED. There is particularity here.

You either have election through enablement or you have UNIVERSALISM. That is the only choice you have without honoring the grammar of the text.

 

[dianetavegia]

With this added as CONTEXT to John 6:44 ....

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent...40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

I think it's quite clear. Those who are 'drawn' and BELIEVES IN HIM... will be saved.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Those who are drawn (through belief)

Don't add words to scripture Wes. It doesn't say that.

NO MAN CAN come to me unless the father draws HIM and I will raise HIM up on the last day.

This is another CHAIN.
The ones RAISED are the EXACT ones DRAWN. The EXACT ones DRAWN are the EXACT one ENABLED. There is particularity here.

You either have election through enablement or you have UNIVERSALISM. That is the only choice you have without honoring the grammar of the text.

OH, by "election through enablement", you must mean that "whosoever believeth in him..." because scriptures declare, through and through, that believing is enablement! Therefore, ALL WHO BELIEVE become the ELECT of God, because GOD raises them up on the last day into everlasting life! No predestination! No election before the foundation of the world, simply belief on the part of the individual in the Christ who is God the Son, manifested in the flesh!

Amazing, you finally agree with scripture!

 

[rc]

Yes Diane you are correct.

Those who Believe is the EVIDENCE that they have been drawn there is no contention from anybody about that. The contention is what you skipped over in verses 37 and 39 ALL that the father GIVES me WILL come to me ..... that I should lose NOTHING of ALL that he has GIVEN me, but raise it up on the last day.

And in 44 Jesus says " NO man CAN come to me ...."
THAT is a universal negative that HAS TO BE EXPLAINED within the text ! It is common sense that the ones drawn are the ones who believe, that has nothing to do with the point. The point is The ones believing CAN ONLY believe BECAUSE they are DRAWN because they have been enabled . AND ALL that are DRAWN, WILL COME TO HIM. SINCE everybody DOES NOT come to him i.e.(vs 37), everybody is not DRAWN. Since everybody is not DRAWN everybody is not ENABLED (no man CAN come to me).... thus proving election.

Saying that the ones drawn are the ones who believe then is a GIVEN (pun intended).

He didn't say No man can come to me unless he believes and the father draws Him...
This would contradict the "no man CAN" CAN is a word of ability ... they are not ABLE to come unless drawn.

Later in the same context Jesus FURTHER pushes the point...

John 6:65-66 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one CAN come to me unless it is GRANTED him by the Father."

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

You wonder why they left right after he said this? ... ya think they had the same problem with submission to the sovereignty of God as many through history?

 

[dianetavegia]

You missed this post, rc. What do you say to THESE verses?

Scriptures are clear that the will of God is that none perish but that all would come to repentance. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is freely given to all who put their trust in Him.


John 6:"28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent...40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."


Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach."

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."


Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Jesus came to give His life for the world and if you believe scripture is saying the "world" was in reference to the elect of God you have got serious problems. First, you are reading into the text. Secondly, the context of the passage refutes that view, and finally, other Scriptures address the world as being MANKIND AS A WHOLE.

 

[rc]

Diane,
Rabbit trails of general verses (and out of context) does not answer the explicit text. The explicit rules the general. This is one of the first rules of hermeneutics Diane.

These verses do not explain John 6. Please exegete the text.

Again you skipped vs 37 and 39 in your reply.

2 cor 5:17 doesn't explain who is drawn it is a general verse which has to be defined by the explicit.

Col 1:19 Follow the personal pronouns. It is to the elect.

1 Tim 2.3 In context the verses before sets WHOM to pray for ALL those in authority and KINGS, Paul is giving all TYPES of people, He wasn't giving a command to pray for every individual in the world but explaining all KINDS of people, not only the oppressed poor (typical in the church at the time) but ALL those in authority, Kings... (at the time the oppressors) He desires ALL kinds of people to be saved. If He was a mediator He is a PERFECT mediator also. He will mediate for those He died for and will not fail in his mediation. Thus He mediates not for everybody but for those He died for. Again excluding people, since all do not believe (in perfect harmony with John 3.16 AND John 6 John 10 John 17.

2 Pet 3.9 Follow the PRONOUNS ... us, you, beloved... this is a letter to the ELECT 1 Pet. 1

Romans 5.6 Follow the PRONOUNS, it is WHO he is writing to ... the elect.

John 3.16 This is a very particular verse. You read it out of what you learned in tradition that only started in the 16th century. The World is connected TO THOSE BELIEVING ONES... the word WHOSOEVER is NOT in the GREEK. And it is taken out of context. Follow the whole conversation between Nikodemon and Jesus. It is a Jew talking to a Jew. You have to understand the racist implications to understand this conversation.

John 3:8 8 The wind blows where it WISHES,
John 3:8 SO IT IS WITH everyone who is born of THE SPIRIT."

THESE are all general verses again that have to be governed by the explicit. You can not break this rule.

These are for the most part off the UNDERSTANDING of the topic anyways.... we are not talking about WHO believes necessarily but HOW they are ENABLED to believe. You have to address these in the contention or you are avoiding issue, since 6.44 talks about enablement and the father drawing and the link between the two phrases that end with them being lifted up.

 

[dianetavegia]

rc, YOU address NOTHING and yet try to throw people off track by demanding they answer to you. My, aren't YOU special.

LOLOL

Answer THIS verse:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Is this another of the times when you think everyone really doesn't MEAN everyone?

exegete? Is that one of your spelling words this week?

 

[dianetavegia]

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

Let me guess, YOU think 'as a ransom for all' really doesn't say that in the greek.

 

[dianetavegia]

Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Whoever desires: And what do you say THIS says in the greek?

 

[TexasSky]

RC: You wrote "You either have election through enablement or you have UNIVERSALISM."

That is not true.

Universalism teaches, "it doesn't matter what you believe, you're all going to heaven." (Or you're all going to hell." In either case, that's a lot closer to Calvinism because of the "doesn't matter what you believe," clause.

God said He sends His message of grace to all.
God said all who respond will be saved.

Those who respond become the Christians, and by becoming Christian, become the elect.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Those who respond become the Christians, and by becoming Christian, become the elect.

Can you tell us anywhere in Scripture where someone becomes elect this way?

 

[dianetavegia]

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What is that in response to? When you post verses or references, please tell what you are using them to prove.

 

[rc]

I will easily address every single one of these rabbit trails when I receive an answer to the question. But when you take scripture seriously, you must think hard and deeply and stay focused. Answer 6.44 Don't talk around it but explain it. How is the chain of 6.37,39 and 44 broken? They must be systematically explained. You can't pick and choose words and add your ideas to them and paste them back into the text. Exegete? New word? Not hardly. How bout this one... The Law of exegetical constancy. ... Gathering by the amount of posts that you have made you might want to step away from the computer for awhile and read some theology books. It would save you allot of time trying to paste together a fractured at best and self-contradictory at worst understanding of scripture.
________________________

Edit to remove self-proclaimed insult. Keep it above board.

[ June 30, 2005, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Let's not direct insults to people. Try to keep this conversation decent.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Can you tell us anywhere in Scripture where someone becomes elect this way?

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

 

[rc]

Sorry,
Should of let the "word for the day" comment go by. But it's just so easy being bad!

 

[rc]

This verse ALSO is general and NOT explicit. It does NOT say ANYTHING of how the heart came to be able to choose BY ITSELF. This only shows since they "obeyed from the heart" that the explicit verses must train the undersanding of the verse.

Jeremiah 13:23 23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

1 Corinthians 2:14 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Something happened ALREADY to their heart IN ORDER for this to occur or this context would CONTRADICT All the verses I just posted. Can't have it any other way....

Still waiting of the exegesis of John 6.44.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Can you tell us anywhere in Scripture where someone becomes elect this way?

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. </font>[/QUOTE]Which part of this verse talks about election? For all my reading, I don't see it in there. And in all my study, I have never seen this verse used in support of anything about election, much less showing that people become elect by becoming Christians.