Yes. That proves the will is not free, but is in bondage to the law of sin and death.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Jonah and Universal Atonement
- Thread starter ICHTHUS
- Start date
Still free to choose from a limited set of remaining options, and coming to Jesus on our own not one of them!
Do you make it up as you go along? ONLY if these people whom Jesus were speaking to actually had FREE WILL, will His words have any meaning or sense. Its like Joshua saying
"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD"
It is completely POINTLESS to say what he did, IF their WILL was in bondage and could not be used to CHOOSE!
says you...Jesus says different. It is clear to me that you are indeed a Calvinist!
Your hatred for Calvin is noted. Your inability to comprehend God's word is also noted.
What type of projector are you using to create your slides, ichthus?
Jesus stated that unless the father gave the sinners to Him to save, they will stay lost, correct?
Yes, as John 12:32 shows Jesus words, "and I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL unto ME". John 16:8 says, "and when He (the Holy Spirit) comes, He will convict the WORLD of sin". Same use of "kosmos" as in John 3:16-17
The ability to make choices has absolutely nothing to do with free will. Everybody makes choices every day. That is patently obvious.
The doctrine of free will is that the lost man's will is not free for it is in bondage to the Law of Sin and Death.
The saved man's will is not free, it is bound to the Law of New Life in Christ.
The lost man is able to make choices, but those choices are limited by his fallen nature.
The saved man is able to make choices, either according to the leading of the New Man, or also, unfortunately, according to the leading of the old man.
Again, "free will" has nothing at all to do with making choices.
The doctrine of free will is that the lost man's will is not free for it is in bondage to the Law of Sin and Death.
The saved man's will is not free, it is bound to the Law of New Life in Christ.
The lost man is able to make choices, but those choices are limited by his fallen nature.
The saved man is able to make choices, either according to the leading of the New Man, or also, unfortunately, according to the leading of the old man.
Again, "free will" has nothing at all to do with making choices.
Are you saying that man cannot chose whether they accept or reject the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour? This is completely wrong, as NO person will be going to hell, except those who reject the Lord Jesus as their Saviour and Lord.
"he coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thess 2:9-12)
Here the lost are said NOT TO RECEIVE the love of the Truth, which is a moral choice ONLY possible with FREE WILL. They are also said NOT TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH. These, my friend are CHOICES made due to mans capacity of FREE WILL. If as you say lost man cannot make choices, then on what basis are they being condemned to hell? This passage in Thessalonians clearly shows that their REJECTION of the Truth about Jesus Christ, and God's salvation that damns a person to hell. Stephen accused the Jews of "resisting the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51), which shows that the Gospel can and is resisted as well as rejected by the WILL of the person, not by God.
Left to just ourselves and our "free will", all of us posting here would be bound for Hell right now!
Only by the Grace of God. There is nothing in mankind that is good enough to come to Christ apart from the Grace of God.
All the lost reject Christ. It is only by Grace that He draws us to Christ.
hello, I totally agree, that salvation is ALL of Grace and what Jesus Christ has done. However, we are not even discussing this issue. I am addressing the issue of the extent of the Atonement, against what some have been misled into accepting that Jesus only died for the "elect", something that is nowhere taught in the Holy Bible. When Jesus says "whosoever" on Revelation 22, He means just that.
John Calvin's comments on part of John 3:16, please read this carefully and see what he exactly says:
"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."
"Calvinists", who proport to follow the teaching of John Calvin, say the correct words are, "all men without distinction", this is NOT what Calvin says, as his comments clearly show. ANSWER THIS
This straw man argument has already been dealt with. Twice. He died for all. But the atonement is only efficacious for believers.
You say, "All the lost reject Christ", which means that God does not predestine them to hell, and therefore must have the capacity to either accept or reject Jesus Christ, which is exactly what FREE WILL is. Otherwise you are saying that God is responsible for people rejecting Jesus and ending up in hell, which the Bible does NOT teach.
There is nothing "straw man" about the Truth as taught in Scripture. Can you PLEASE tell me what John 3:16-17 actually teaches?
Of course we invite all men to be saved. Yet, the Bible is clear that only those whom God chooses to adopt will be saved. That is God's perogative. Our task is to be ambassadors who preach reconciliation to those who are not yet new creations in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5).
Does God adopt all people, ichthus?
Glad to. The gospel call is universal. The Gospel calls all men "without exception to the faith of Christ." And it is through that Gospel Call that Grace is imparted and the sinner believes, repents, and follows Christ.
I did not say nor imply that the Truth of Scripture is a "straw man." I said that your claim that "Calvinists" deny that He died for all is a straw man. That has already been exposed as being untrue.
He died for all.
You speak with fork-tongue! according to 1 Corinthians chapter 15, the Apostle Paul tells us what the Gospel is:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures"
Now, if the Gospel is that "CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS", and you say that the Gospel call is universal, as it does in Mark 16:15, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature", then this is only ratified if Jesus' death was for all of mankind, "everyone without exception", as Mr Calvin also puts it.
The Calvinists' playing with words, that the Atonement is "sufficient" for all, but only "efficient" for those who believe, is not taught in the Bible. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is universal, in that it is available for ALL, but saves only those who come to Jesus Christ in repentance and forgiveness of their personal sins.