Without exception, or without distinction? If the former, then you cease being a Calvinist; if the latter, then you are misleading when you say "He died for all", because your ALL is not really ALL, but SOME.
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Jonah and Universal Atonement
- Thread starter ICHTHUS
- Start date
Without exception, or without distinction? If the former, then you cease being a Calvinist; if the latter, then you are misleading when you say "He died for all", because your ALL is not really ALL, but SOME.
Correct. Every time we see "predestine" or a form of that word the context is always positive. God does not predestine the lost to hell. They are already condemned due to their sin. John 3:18b he that believeth not is condemned already.
Non-sequitur. How does being lost give people the spiritual ability to come to Christ on their own? 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Of course the bible does not teach that. And I am not saying nor do I believe that. People end up in hell because they are sinners. It is only by the Grace of God that any of use are spared.
It is.
It is.
It is.
See? Eliminate the straw man arguments and understanding begins to shine in.
No person can ever come to Jesus Christ for salvation ON THEIR OWN. it is not possible. The issue is not whether they come to Jesus on their own, but whether they have the Holy Spirit given capacity to respond to the Gospel message for their salvation, or to reject this same message and thus be condemned to eternal punishment. If you say the sinners will is bound, then they cannot either accept or reject the Gospel, and then makes them not responsible before God when the are not saved. Unless you believe that all humans are born robots?
It is.
It is.
It is.
See? Eliminate the straw man arguments and understanding begins to shine in.
Welcome to the world of non Calvinism!
LOL, yes all humanity runs headlong toward hell. It is only by God's merciful grace that any human doesn't run off the cliff into hell like a lemming.
Jonathan Edwards imagery of humans being spiders dangling over the flames by a thread is appropriate. There is no hope for us apart from God's gracious salvation.
What did I say?
You don't get to make that determination.
Once again you trot out the straw man that has already been proven wrong.
Who did the Apostle write to in this letter? Was it to the believers in Corinth or to all the pagans as well?
Has God adopted all humans, ichthus?
Lost people don't have the Holy Spirit. And even if they did (they don't) they couldn't know what He wants. 1 Cointhians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Wrong again. Still a Particular Baptist, still believe in Particular Redemption, still believe Salvation is of the Lord, still believe it was finished on the cross and not when I did some good work of the flesh. Salvation. All of God, none of me. I am unworthy. Only He is worthy.Welcome to the world of non Calvinism!
read John 16:7-11
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged"
Very clearly says that the Holy Spirit will CONVICT THE WORLD that they are SINNERS in that they DO NOT BELIEVE in Jesus for their salvation. Clearly the work of the Holy Spirit in conviction is UNIVERSAL, and not LIMITED.
Very good and correct.
No spiritually dead person (Ephesians 2:1) is capable of choosing. They are dead.
Romans 9 answers you point blank and leaves your argument empty of merit.
Romans 9:11-24
[11]But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;
[12]he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”
[13]In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”
[14]Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
[15]For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
[16]So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
[17]For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
[18]So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
[19]Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
[20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
[22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
[23]He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
[24]And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
Me too brother! I believe in Particular Redemption, in that Jesus died for EVERYONE IN PARTICULAR, which is what Jesus Himself taught!
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Christ is the Savior of all men in the institutional sense. His Sacrifice bestows blessings on all people, believers and unbelievers, on the just and on the unjust. His Sacrifice enables us to proclaim a true Gospel message to all mankind.
But His atonement is only applied to believers, those of whom He says "especially (in a very special way - a salvific way) on those who believe."
When did I ever say otherwise? Of course the convicting power of the Holy Spirit is universal. But the sin of mankind results in the rejection of that conviction. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Although there are many Bible verses and passages that tell us that we have free will, the only one I really need is this one:
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Obviously, one can have his or her name written in the Book of Life but then have it taken OUT.
...and it is all based upon whether or not you overcome SIN.
Not any different than what the Prophet Ezekiel said. God does not change. Jesus said when you have seen Me you have seen the Father.
Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:14-16
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Only those who keep His Commandments will enter in.... no whoremongers (thou shalt not commit adultery), no murderers (thou shalt not kill), no idolaters (thou shalt not have any other gods before me thou shalt not worship any graven images), and not those who love and make a lie (though shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor).
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Obviously, one can have his or her name written in the Book of Life but then have it taken OUT.
...and it is all based upon whether or not you overcome SIN.
Not any different than what the Prophet Ezekiel said. God does not change. Jesus said when you have seen Me you have seen the Father.
Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:14-16
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Only those who keep His Commandments will enter in.... no whoremongers (thou shalt not commit adultery), no murderers (thou shalt not kill), no idolaters (thou shalt not have any other gods before me thou shalt not worship any graven images), and not those who love and make a lie (though shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor).
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I find it pretty impossibe to believe that ALL the Ninevites could have turned to God in repentance and faith unless they had all been elect. If it had been entirely up to them, by the law of averages (actually no law at all) surely some of them would have rejected?
Actually, Paul predicts in Romans that a time is coming in which all Israel shall be saved, which could mean every Israelite left alive at that time (My own personal opinion is that there will be no history at all following this, but the Second Coming happens immediately after, so don't expect to hear about a mass conversion of the Jews before the Day is upon us - There won't be time for anyone to hear about it). Again, down to election.
Actually, Paul predicts in Romans that a time is coming in which all Israel shall be saved, which could mean every Israelite left alive at that time (My own personal opinion is that there will be no history at all following this, but the Second Coming happens immediately after, so don't expect to hear about a mass conversion of the Jews before the Day is upon us - There won't be time for anyone to hear about it). Again, down to election.
I would consider myself lo-Cal. If God in his foreknowledge saw these people repenting and turning to him then they were a part of the elect. Limited or unlimited atonement ? It is limited to those God in his foreknowledge saw accepting salvation it is unlimited in that he did not force salvation on anyone and made it available to everyone.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
How many other Gentile cities were selected for the gospel message in those days?
Sure we have free will. That' our problem! It isn't good will, nor capable will, but it is free, so we do wrong, Romans 7:18.