How can one have "free will" and not "capable will"? Surely the definition of "free will", is the ability to make a CHOICE between options? Like when we read in the Bible, "choose this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15), this is to make a CHOICE to either ACCEPT or REJECT the Lord God as ones personal God, and follow Him, which is a moral CHOICE, and determines eternal life or eternal damnation. As in Ezekiel 33:11, "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?, where the Lord God is giving a CHOICE to LIVE or DIE. This is exactly what the New Testament teaches.
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Jonah and Universal Atonement
- Thread starter ICHTHUS
- Start date
How can one have "free will" and not "capable will"? Surely the definition of "free will", is the ability to make a CHOICE between options? Like when we read in the Bible, "choose this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15), this is to make a CHOICE to either ACCEPT or REJECT the Lord God as ones personal God, and follow Him, which is a moral CHOICE, and determines eternal life or eternal damnation. As in Ezekiel 33:11, "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?, where the Lord God is giving a CHOICE to LIVE or DIE. This is exactly what the New Testament teaches.
Out of curiosity could you quote the verse where free will is used?
There are verses where predestined is taught and used, but I have never read about free-will being spoken...ever...in the Bible.
1) God did eventually destroy Ninevah. It has nothing to do with individual atonement. The OP is utterly wrong.
2) Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel. The church is the Israel of God and everyone chosen for adoption into Israel will be saved.
Our will is always self-serving. It is not capable of choosing God. God must choose us or we die in our sins.
Isn't it interesting in the story of Jonah, that after all that Jonah went through he felt in my opinion that he deserved to see the Judgment of God. He sat under a fig tree and waited for the fireworks. Gods' judgment was not passed at that time but later. At this particular time God showed Jonah his Salvation and Mercy. That is why in my humble opinion from the cradle to the grave we should be very careful to judge others as we do not know how God is working in their heart. I know at times I have been guilty of this I was sitting under my fig tree waiting for the fireworks. All Gods children are special to him and speaking of free will... I come from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of the Father that has SENT ME... OF ALL THE FATHER HAS GIVEN ME!... I SHALL LOSE NOTHING BUT RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY!... To me THAT is the true definition of FREE WILL!... Brother Glen
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Man is elected to be saved. God wishes all to be saved.
The problem is that many Christians look at the end, and they automatically think they themselves were elected to be in Heaven.
But the Bible election is this:
1. Man is elected to work out his OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
2. He is elected to put on the armor, to fight the good fight of faith.
3. He is elected to make use of every means that God has placed within his reach to war against every unholy thought and action.
4. He is elected to watch unto prayer.
5. He is elected to search the Scriptures.
6. He is elected to avoid entering into temptation or placing himself in the way of temptation.
7. He is elected to have constant faith.
8. He is elected to be obedient to every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
9. He is elected to be not a hearer only, but a doer of the word.
This is Bible election.
Look at the Book of Peter. It says to make your calling and your election SURE. The look at the list before that which tells us how to do it.
The problem is that many Christians look at the end, and they automatically think they themselves were elected to be in Heaven.
But the Bible election is this:
1. Man is elected to work out his OWN salvation with fear and trembling.
2. He is elected to put on the armor, to fight the good fight of faith.
3. He is elected to make use of every means that God has placed within his reach to war against every unholy thought and action.
4. He is elected to watch unto prayer.
5. He is elected to search the Scriptures.
6. He is elected to avoid entering into temptation or placing himself in the way of temptation.
7. He is elected to have constant faith.
8. He is elected to be obedient to every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
9. He is elected to be not a hearer only, but a doer of the word.
This is Bible election.
Look at the Book of Peter. It says to make your calling and your election SURE. The look at the list before that which tells us how to do it.
Galatians 5:13
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
John 7:17
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Joshua 24:15
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
Mark 8:34
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.
Revelation 3:20
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Romans 13:2
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Isaiah 55:6-7
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
John 1:12-13
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Ezekiel 18:30-32
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Simple. My "free will" wants me to walk on the ceiling, but I am not capable because it is not in my nature to walk on the ceiling. That is the problem with the will. It can only make choices that are within its moral nature. And the lost, fallen nature will always choose wrong because, in reality, the will is not free, it is in bondage to the law of sin and death.
No, for the 10th time or so "free will" means the lost man is NOT in bondage to the law of sin and death, and the saved man is NOT bound to the Law of New Life in Christ. And that is a denial of the very basis of Christianity.
Uh, Joshua was talking to Israel, the chosen people of God to follow God and not be deceived by false gods and false leaders.
Uh, you did notice who that is addressed to, didn't you? Here, let me help you.
See that last part? He was talking to God's people.
The problem is that you have not been able to show any of our quoted scriptures to be wrong. You don't seem to even understand the verses you try to use to show that Salvation by Grace alone is wrong. You are still trying to deny that the lost are bound to the law of sin and death.
Simple. My "free will" wants me to walk on the ceiling, but I am not capable because it is not in my nature to walk on the ceiling. That is the problem with the will. It can only make choices that are within its moral nature. And the lost, fallen nature will always choose wrong because, in reality, the will is not free, it is in bondage to the law of sin and death.
No, for the 10th time or so "free will" means the lost man is NOT in bondage to the law of sin and death, and the saved man is NOT bound to the Law of New Life in Christ. And that is a denial of the very basis of Christianity.
Uh, Joshua was talking to Israel, the chosen people of God to follow God and not be deceived by false gods and false leaders.
Uh, you did notice who that is addressed to, didn't you? Here, let me help you.
See that last part? He was talking to God's people.
The problem is that you have not been able to show any of our quoted scriptures to be wrong. You don't seem to even understand the verses you try to use to show that Salvation by Grace alone is wrong. You are still trying to deny that the lost are bound to the law of sin and death.
"If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me".
When we behold, the Bible says we will become changed.
If we were not given the choice to do this. then all men would be saved, since Jesus said if they look at Him all would be drawn to Him.
We choose whether or not we want to allow the Holy Spirit to do His work upon our hearts.
Romans 6
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
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Here is bible election. Romans 16:13 Salute Rufus elect in the Lord.
Nope. The bible says that the lost person does not receive the things of the Holy Spirit, thinks they are foolish, cannot even understand them. The only way a lost person can become a saved person is by the Grace of God.
2 Peter 1:9-11
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
If you will simply read this whole chapter, it plainly tells you that IF you add the character traits listed (godliness, virtue, faith, knowledge, etc) and become a partaker of the divine nature, THEN you will be admitted into heaven and will have made your election SURE.
Therefore,it should be obvious what happens to those who DON'T. The Bible says they have become BLIND, forgetting that they were purged from their old sins and their old ways.
Just as it says in the book of Peter about someone who goes back to wallowing in the mire.
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
If you will simply read this whole chapter, it plainly tells you that IF you add the character traits listed (godliness, virtue, faith, knowledge, etc) and become a partaker of the divine nature, THEN you will be admitted into heaven and will have made your election SURE.
Therefore,it should be obvious what happens to those who DON'T. The Bible says they have become BLIND, forgetting that they were purged from their old sins and their old ways.
Just as it says in the book of Peter about someone who goes back to wallowing in the mire.
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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There is no true free will after the Fall for mankind though, and those who go to heaven are there due to ONLY the deathj/resurrection of Christ on their behalf, nothing to do with commandments and law keeping!
We have limited free will, in that what we can select to do or not is from a limited menu now!
In sorry but you seem to have not understood the question. Here it is again.
He is asking where the bible uses the term "free will" or teaches that the will is free and not in bondage to either the law of sin and death or the Law of New Life in Christ.
Yes, we are called to be free from the law of sin and death and free from the curse of the law. But that does not support the idea that the lost are free from the law of sin and death. In fact, it teaches the exact opposite.
Yes, God's people will know that Jesus is the Messiah when they submit to God. But that does not address any supposed "free will."
Yes, God's people are called to follow Him rather than to follow false Gods and false teachers, but this does not address free will in any way.
Yes, the saved must choose to learn from Christ but this has nothing to do with the supposed "free will."
Yes, Jesus wants to be in the assembly among His people, but this has nothing at all to do with supposed "free will."
Yes, God instituted civil government, but this has nothing at all to do with supposed "free will."
Yes, God told Adam and Eve to eat of every tree of the Garden but not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But this does not address the soul's bondage to sin. That came later, when sin reigned and "free will" died.
Yes, God's people should always seek to be close to the Lord but this has nothing to do with supposed "free will."
Yes, the children of God receive Him, believe in Him, and are given that privilege of being adopted into the Family of God but this has nothing at all to do with supposed "free will."
Yes, God tells his people that they can either follow Him and live or not follow Him and die, but this has nothing at all to do with "free will."
This verse has nothing to do with salvation. It is addressing the elect and the freedom grace gives us.
Not a verse on salvation. Not a free will verse.
Note verse 19.
"You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins."
Bound in sin. No hope outside of God's work of salvation. Joshua 24 is a wonderful passage that argues against free will.
Was this before Jesus atonement for sin or afterward? This verse is not free will.
Context is key. This is a letter to the Laodicean church. These folks were already elect. The issue is about being useless. It is a warning to the church and a call to repentance. It is not a verse on salvation.
Not a verse on salvation. Not free will.
We're Adam and Eve guilty of sin at this point? What happened to them after the fall? We're they free to choose to stay in the garden? Answer: No.
Indeed, this is the message of reconciliation. Where is the section that says they will freely choose?
What we see is God choosing to pardon.
A great verse about God work. Not free will. Who gave the right? Whose will? God's will.
Are we under the law or under grace? Who is this addressing, the elect of Israel or all humanity?
Are the Israelite the elect and chosen people of God?
This is a great call to repentance to the elect. Just as the writer to the Galatians opines, why would we go back to sin?
Esther, there are zero verses in the Bible that speak of free-will. It is a man-made philosophy created to allow humans to have control over God and deny God's Sovereignty as Lord and King.
This is the false teaching of works salvation. It is anathema to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all things Holy and Scriptural.
1John 3:20
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.