just How Do the DoG Provide "sinner an excuse?"

[Greektim]

Yep, God hated me before I was born, he passed over me without mercy, and he is going to torment me forever for his pleasure. Like a potter, he fitted me for destruction before I even existed.

WOW.

You must think highly of yourself attaining some intrinsic value that God would not hate you. But if you were a sinner and God hated sinners, then the logic that follows is pretty clear.

 

[matt wade]

You must think highly of yourself attaining some intrinsic value that God would not hate you. But if you were a sinner and God hated sinners, then the logic that follows is pretty clear.

You must think rather highly of yourself that the god of calvinism would choose you to be saved and not choose so many others.

 

[Greektim]

I give you my earlier analogy:

The god of calvinism is like a computer programmer who creates a program that is unable to print anything but "Hello World!" and then deletes the program, blaming the program itself for being incapable of saying "I love you programmer." The god of calvinism programs people to unbelief and then sends them to hell for not believing.

You say that "all men every where are commanded to repent and believe the gospel", that's like the programmer above commanding the program to say "I love you programmer", yet only programming it to say "Hello world". That's just simply absurd. The god of calvinism is absurd and unmerciful.

Fun analogy. Problem is, in your analogy no one is saved by grace. The programmer who says hello world is also the programmer that fixes the problem of sin created by the programs sinful choice and enables certain programs to say "I love you, programmer" and others to continue in error. In the grand, divine wisdom of the programmer, he leaves some programs for honor and others for dishonor b/c it is his world and he can do with his program what pleases and glorifies him most.

Good analogy... thanks!

 

[jbh28]

I am not a Pelagian and you know it, I have always said it would be impossible for any man to be saved without God's gracious revelation of himself through the word of God. You KNOW that, so this is an intentional misrepresentation of me.

I didn't say you were a Pelagian. What I said was that particular belief was Pelagian. I'm sure you disagree on other things, but on that you agree and it's Pelagian.

 

[Greektim]

You must think rather highly of yourself that the god of calvinism would choose you to be saved and not choose so many others.

Once again... you prove to know little of calvinistic doctrine. We who recognize our total and utter depravity are quite baffled as to why God would choose to save me from my sin. I am humbled beyond description that I have the opportunity to serve my Savior, and even more I'm thankful that he equips me to do so. Hallowed be his name!!!

 

[matt wade]

Fun analogy. Problem is, in your analogy no one is saved by grace. The programmer who says hello world is also the programmer that fixes the problem of sin created by the programs sinful choice and enables certain programs to say "I love you, programmer" and others to continue in error. In the grand, divine wisdom of the programmer, he leaves some programs for honor and others for dishonor b/c it is his world and he can do with his program what pleases and glorifies him most.

Good analogy... thanks!

Gotta love it...you take a simple analogy and attempt to twist words. So now a computer program, written by a programmer, makes a choice to do the only thing the programmer programmed it to do? That's funny...

 

[Winman]

Sin is not why people go to hell in Calvinism, the elect sin all their lives.

No, God deciding to pass over a man and not enabling him to believe is why he goes to hell.

 

[Greektim]

Gotta love it...you take a simple analogy and attempt to twist words. So now a computer program, written by a programmer, makes a choice to do the only thing the programmer programmed it to do? That's funny...

You actually accused me of word twisting in the same post where you said, "a computer program, written by a programmer, makes a choice to do the only thing the programmer programmed it to do?"

Let's back up...

Let's say that the programmer wrote into the program the ability (ai) to make that choice (he is a good programmer after all). The program chooses to rebel against the programmer. Now the program has the perpetual proclivity to persistently rebel against the programmer. The program then produces other program, but he can only pass on the same kind of programming language that it has chosen (i.e. the kind that rebels against the programmer). So every program that stems from the first program has the same program language of rebellion. The only thing the newer programs can do is what is encoded into them. That is until the programmer himself changes that code and enables them to say "I love you, programmer."

This is not word twisting. This is taking your analogy and explaining the DoG.

 

[Greektim]

Sin is not why people go to hell in Calvinism, the elect sin all their lives.

No, God deciding to pass over a man and not enabling him to believe is why he goes to hell.

Pardon... sin and no forgiveness. The elect have their sins forgiven.

 

[matt wade]

Let's say that the programmer wrote into the program the ability (ai) to make that choice (he is a good programmer after all). The program chooses to rebel against the programmer. Now the program has the perpetual proclivity to persistently rebel against the programmer. The program then produces other program, but he can only pass on the same kind of programming language that it has chosen (i.e. the kind that rebels against the programmer). So every program that stems from the first program has the same program language of rebellion. The only thing the newer programs can do is what is encoded into them. That is until the programmer himself changes that code and enables them to say "I love you, programmer."

Now that you've completely changed the analogy, let's go with it.

So based on your new analogy, the god of calvinism is lazy and doesn't do a good job of chasing down all the buggy software and fixing it?

 

[matt wade]

Pardon... sin and no forgiveness. The elect have their sins forgiven.

Yes, the elect in calvinism have their sins forgiven because they are more special than the rest of humanity and the god of calvinism liked them better.

 

[jbh28]

Sin is not why people go to hell in Calvinism, the elect sin all their lives.

No, God deciding to pass over a man and not enabling him to believe is why he goes to hell.

Sorry, but sin is exactly why people go to hell in Calvinism. Saying anything else is to misrepresent us. We have corrected you. If you think otherwise, you are changing our view. Without sin, there is no reason for Christ; no reason for grace; no reason for mercy. Sin has to be the reason one goes to hell. One that doesn't go to hell is because he is justified and therefore not guilty of sin.

 

[Skandelon]

It is not wise for sinful man to accuse God of being to blame for His sin.

I didn't blame God for sin. I simply asked if there is any better excuse for unbelief than the one given by Calvinistic dogma?

I submit there is not. What better excuse for unbelief is there than, "I was born unable to believe?" That view exalts the view of man because it makes it appear they had nothing to do with their rejection of God's appeal for reconciliation.

It's like when homosexuals say, "I was born this way," so as to remove their guilt. The same answer can be given by the non-elect of the Calvinistic system. It is the perfect excuse for unbelief and thus is completely unbiblical.

I believe men who go to hell deserve it because despite God's loving provision of mercy they turned up their noses at him and rebelled. God did all that was necessary for them be reconciled and the only one to blame for their unbelief is them. My view of man is much more depraved than Calvinism because I don't give them an excuse for their rebellion like Calvinists do.

All men every where are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, not to whine and make excuses for why they enjoyed a life of sin

I couldn't agree more, which is why I reject Calvinism's excuses for why men reject God.

 

[jbh28]

Yes, the elect in calvinism have their sins forgiven because they are more special than the rest of humanity and the [snip of rules breaking] of calvinism liked them better.

I'm no more special than anyone else. I did nothing to warrant God choosing me.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sin is not why people go to hell in Calvinism, the elect sin all their lives.

No, God deciding to pass over a man and not enabling him to believe is why he goes to hell.

This is not christian teaching...this is ungodly thought.....repent of this wickedness.

 

[matt wade]

Sorry, but sin is exactly why people go to hell in Calvinism. Saying anything else is to misrepresent us. We have corrected you. If you think otherwise, you are changing our view. Without sin, there is no reason for Christ; no reason for grace; no reason for mercy. Sin has to be the reason one goes to hell. One that doesn't go to hell is because he is justified and therefore not guilty of sin.

I agree that sin is why people go to hell, but in calvinism, the god of calvinism is responsible for people's sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

I didn't blame God for sin. I simply asked if there is any better excuse for unbelief than the one given by Calvinistic dogma?

I submit there is not. What better excuse for unbelief is there than, "I was born unable to believe?" That view exalts the view of man because it makes it appear they had nothing to do with their rejection of God's appeal for reconciliation.

It's like when homosexuals say, "I was born this way," so as to remove their guilt. The same answer can be given by the non-elect of the Calvinistic system. It is the perfect excuse for unbelief and thus is completely unbiblical.

I believe men who go to hell deserve it because despite God's loving provision of mercy they turned up their noses at him and rebelled. God did all that was necessary for them be reconciled and the only one to blame for their unbelief is them. My view of man is much more depraved than Calvinism because I don't give them an excuse for their rebellion like Calvinists do.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I reject Calvinism's excuses for why men reject God.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

I agree that sin is why people go to hell, but in calvinism, the God(edited because of rules violation in post) is responsible for people's sin.

sorry, but that's a total false statement of our belief. No Calvinist believes that God is responsible for people's sin. Man is responsible for his sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skan ,
[QUOTEIt's like when homosexuals say, "I was born this way," so as to remove their guilt. The same answer can be given by the non-elect of the Calvinistic system. It is the perfect excuse for unbelief and thus is completely unbiblical.

][/QUOTE]

The sodomite who uses lady gaga theology...i was born this way.......does not remove his guilt before a holy God.
the non elect reprobate who says the same thing about his sin will be found guilty of sins ...which have not been paid for...and he will pay in hell.

both are decieved ,guilty , and without excuse.

 

[Skandelon]

You are trying to argue for an excuse that the sinner should have to go to heaven. "It is God's fault I wasn't saved. He didn't allow me to believe."

Whereas...

The issue is whether a sinner has an excuse to stay out of hell. Answer... no, his sin is the root cause of that. His excuse? "It's God's fault he didn't make me without sin." There's your excuse, although I don't think its a good one.

I'm talking about man's excuse for unbelief, which is ultimately why he is condemned. He rejects God's universal appeal "to be reconciled to God" for a reason. The reason is because he was born unable to willingly do otherwise (according to Calvinists) thus giving man the perfect excuse.

Your explanation would be correct if not for the universal appeal of the gospel, which is why SOME more extreme Hyper-Calvinistic groups have denied the intent of its universality. They recognize this dilemma, as should you.....but hopefully you will change your Calvinism instead of denying the universality of the gospel.