Justification from everlasting !

[savedbymercy]

12str

You say a person who doesn't exist can be justified by God, but that a person who doesn't exist cannot have faith

You misquoted me, reread post 153 and go by word for word what I stated please.

I am sure I stated this:

I would not go that far. In a sense from God's perspective, yes the Faith of God's Elect is real, but for the elect experientially it is not yet come to past.

 

[Dr. Walter]

12str



You misquoted me, reread post 153 and go by word for word what I stated please.

I am sure I stated this:

Well, there you go! I told you he believes that the elect had actual realistic existence before the world began! He cannot discern the difference between eternal purpose INSIDE OF GOD'S MIND and actual substantive existence which must occur OUTSIDE of God's mind UNLESS WE ARE AS MUCH GOD as GOD is GOD! His doctrine requires the elect to be inseparable from the NATURE OF GOD and thus EQUALLY ETERNAL AS GOD AND THUS GOD.

 

[12strings]

12str

You misquoted me, reread post 153 and go by word for word what I stated please.

I would not go that far. In a sense from God's perspective, yes the Faith of God's Elect is real, but for the elect experientially it is not yet come to past.

You are right, I misquoted you. I appologize. In this case, I fail to see what exactly we are arguing about. You seem to agree with both Walter and I that from God's perspective, things can be true and real that we have not experienced in time yet. So I have 2 questions:

1. Is what I just said a fair represention of what you believe?

2. Is there a practical difference to my life today that would be affected if I took either side of this argument about eternal justification without faith?

(I will address your other question in another post)

 

[12strings]

Let me help you out. One question at a time. When did God lay any charges of sin and condemnation against His Elect in Light of this passage Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Answer: In Time...

1. Adam and Eve... (I know it might be difficult to proof-text their salvation, but it seems that God redeemed them, AFTER He charged them with sin.

2. David - (2 Sam. 12:7-9) - 7 "Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, b‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. 8 And I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. 9 cWhy have you despised the word of the Lord, dto do what is evil in his sight?"

3. All believers, described in Eph. 2: "children of Wrath... & Rom. 5: "enemies of God"...and most of all, John 3:36 - John 3:36 - "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
[Note that this verse very clearly links belief (faith) with escaping the wrath of God... Now It could be argued from your perspective that the wrath of God remains on those who were never justified and never will be from eternity, which would help your case that only those NOT justifed were EVER under the wrath of God... But it does not help your case that belief or faith has nothing to do with that justification]


ALSO... Romans 8:34 says that God's Justification is based on Christ's death on the cross, which as you say was also "from the foundation of the world."
BUT... The person Jesus Christ was not experientially born, alive, and crucified from the foundation of the world.

 

[savedbymercy]

12 string

Answer: In Time...

That is wrong. God never did lay any charges upon His Elect, He laid them all on Christ as He was set up before the world began as their Surety in the Everlasting Covenant. Heb 7:22

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 13:20

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of, the everlasting covenant

No Christ did not actually shed His blood before the world began, but He actually was made their Surety before the world began. God will not hold the Surety liable for the sins of others and hold the others as well liable for the same sins.

All believers, described in Eph. 2: "children of Wrath

Yes by nature they were children of wrath as others, but they were not charged with their sins, Christ was. Thats why He had to come and die, because God held Him and not them accountable.

ALSO... Romans 8:34 says that God's Justification is based on Christ's death on the cross

Yes, that is correct, In God's Purpose He was slain from the foundation. That means God had imputed their sins on Him before the foundation, they never were laid to their charge legally.

The whole elect world, both jew and gentile, never had their Trespasses laid to their charge, Paul preached that Here 2 Cor 5:19


Now the second question was this. When were the elect accepted in the beloved according to Eph 1:3-6


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[savedbymercy]

On Jn 3:36

John 3:36

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

These here that believeth not are the ones who have God's wrath abiding on them. Why ? Because Christ did not appease God's wrath on their behalf, and thats why they cannot believe on Him. Also notice that Jesus says of these that they shall not see life, that is final.

However, those that Christ died for, He satisfied God's wrath on their behalf, and even while they are enemies to God by nature like others, yet they have been reconciled to God already, not by their Faith, thats impossible since they are yet His enemies, but by the Death of God's Son. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now there is a promise given to those who are God's enemies by Nature, but have been reconciled to God through Christ death, that Promise is that they SHALL be saved by His Life !

Now contrast that with what is said about the unbelievers in Jn 3:36, the promise for them is they shall not be saved, they SHALL not see Life.

 

[Dr. Walter]

12 string



That is wrong. God never did lay any charges upon His Elect, He laid them all on Christ as He was set up before the world began as their Surety in the Everlasting Covenant. Heb 7:22

May I ask whose charges did He lay on Christ in eternity past since none of the elect in eternity past ever sinned?

 

[savedbymercy]

May I ask whose charges did He lay on Christ in eternity past since none of the elect in eternity past ever sinned?

Thats a dumb question. He laid the sins of the elect on the surety , the sins they would commit in time beginning with Adam. With a stupid question like that, Why did God even have a Everlasting Covenant in the first place ? Why was He the Lamb slain from the foundation ? Why was He foreordained before the foundation ? 1 Pet 1:20

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now ask yourself the question why did God foreordain Christ BEFORE the foundation since obviously no one had sinned before the foundation !

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 3:36

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Does the langauge mean anything to you? John did NOT say he that SHALL not beleive in the Son shall not see life! He uses present tense for both the postive and the negative. In other words, the person PRESENTLY believing presently possesses eternal life but the one PRESENTLY not believing is PRESENTLY under the wrath of God. He did not say he "SHALL" be under the wrath of God.

Does the language mean anything to you? The present tenses completely repudiate your interpretation. All who are PRESENTLY beleiving possess eternal life and all who PRESENTLY are not believing are PRESENTLY under God's wrath/condemnation!

This is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:2-3 concerning the elect that they were "children OF WRATH even as others." He uses the PAST TENSE. May I ask you when were the ELECT children of "WRATH" if it were not precisely the same time that John speaks of in John 3:36 when they were PRESENTLY in unbelief????? If not then, WHEN?

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

May I ask you when were the ELECT children of "WRATH" if it were not precisely the same time that John speaks of in John 3:36 when they were PRESENTLY in unbelief????? If not then, WHEN?


Can you bring yourself to answer this question thoughtfully and deal honestly with the language the Holy Spirit provided so that those teaching false doctrine could not make His words mean what they wanted to mean but what He wanted it to mean??????????????????

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

but the one PRESENTLY not believing is PRESENTLY under the wrath of God.

I know that, you have not said nothing new, but you are overlooking something, those who Jesus says were not presently believing, He also said of them that they shall not see Life. They shall not see life is in the future tense ! Meaning they will never see life, not ever. They have no chance of believing for salvation now and in the future. ! They are permanently under God's wrath !

Thats not the case with the elect.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thats a dumb question.

Oh, is it really?? You see there can be no laying charge upon Christ before the foundation of the world unless first before the the foundation of the world in the mind of God there is a reason to lay such a charge upon Christ! Can you grasp that? Hence, in the mind of God condemnation upon the elect must logically precede any solution for that condemnation to be resolved. Hence, in the mind of God there must first be CONDEMNATION upon the elect before it can be charged to anyone else! Can you grasp that???

So either way you go, whether in eternity past in the mind of God or in actual time the elect were under condemnation FIRST, as the condemnation had to exist FIRST before condemnation could be charged to anyone else or otherwise there is nothing to charge Christ with! Can you grasp that? God must LOGICALLY conceive in His mind condemnation first before he can conceive in his mind the necessity to charge it to Christ! Can you grasp that? I am not talking about any kind of chronological order but a logical order.

With a stupid question like that, Why did God even have a Everlasting Covenant in the first place ? Why was He the Lamb slain from the foundation ? Why was He foreordained before the foundation ? 1 Pet 1:20

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

What is "stupid" is to think that God IN HIS MIND purposes salvation before the world began before he conceives IN HIS MIND any need for salvation - that is what is "stupid." There is no need to concieve in his mind salvation for a people who have no need of salvation - that is what is "stupid."

Hence, condemnation/lost condition must logically precede a salvation purpose or else there is logically nothing needing salvation in the first place! There is no need to charge Christ with condemnation if there is no one one thought to be condemned first!

 

[12strings]

the second question was this. When were the elect accepted in the beloved according to Eph 1:3-6

The obvious answer is both.
In eternity past when he predestined us "in love" for adoption as sons. So God considered me beloved before the foundation of the world.

But he applied that to me personally when I was personally saved "by grace through faith" (Eph. 2:8-9). Why? because at one time I was dead in sin, a child of wrath. And at some point in time God "made me alive in Christ," and "raised me up" into the heavenly places.

One more point, the very word "predestined" means that God destined something to happen BEFORE it happened. The predestining and the actual act applied to me are 2 different acts, other wise God would not use the word predestined at all.

I'm still wondering what the point of this argument is...If I totally accepted your view, what practical difference would it make in my life of following Christ?

 

[Skandelon]

The obvious answer is both.
In eternity past when he predestined us "in love" for adoption as sons. So God considered me beloved before the foundation of the world.

Who is 'us?' Us refers to those who believe, thus Paul has simply said that God has predetermined to adopt all who believe. We, as believers, eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies, which God has predestined will happen. Nothing is said about God predestining some to believe and not others.

But he applied that to me personally when I was personally saved "by grace through faith" (Eph. 2:8-9). Why? because at one time I was dead in sin, a child of wrath. And at some point in time God "made me alive in Christ," and "raised me up" into the heavenly places.

Life comes through faith, not the other way around.

John 20:31:
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

One more point, the very word "predestined" means that God destined something to happen BEFORE it happened. The predestining and the actual act applied to me are 2 different acts, other wise God would not use the word predestined at all.

Correct. He predetermined that all believers would be (1) conformed to the image of Christ and (2) adopted as his children. It never says anything about God predetermining you to believe the message of reconciliation, it only tells us what God has determined to do with His church.

BTW, the concept being posed by savedbyMercy is not orthodox by any standard and should be dismissed as utterly ridiculous. In fact, I'd like to know what scholars have taught on this view?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Bill Wald...

You said...

Telling God whom he may and may not regenerate? God is not permitted to regenerate those who have never heard of Jesus?

I agree completly with you. God certainly can, and has, given the gift of saving revelation, and , eternal life, to some who never heard of Jesus through their normal senses.

Praise God.

 

[savedbymercy]

12 strings

The obvious answer is both.

You are wrong again. God made the Elect accepted in the Beloved at the date He chose them in Christ, which according to the passage I shared with you Eph 1:3-6 was before the foundation of the world. The Elect never had their sins imputed to them.

But he applied that to me personally when I was personally saved "by grace through faith" (Eph. 2:8-9).

More false doctrine. It does not need to be personally applied to you in order for it to be True to God. Yes the elect come to realize in themselves that they have been Justified and accepted in Christ Eternally, but thats not when it took place.

If we use the figure of a person who owed a huge debt to a debtor. Now unbeknown to the one who OS the debt, one who had his best interest at heart met with the banker and vowed to the banker that He would pay all of the debt for this one who owed the banker the huge debt ! Then on the by and by the one who made the vow to pay the debtor actually did Pay the banker every penny that was owed for the one that owed the banker the huge debt. Now on the by and by, they one who owed the debt, feeling compelled to try and put something towards his huge debt that he owes, he then comes to find out that all his huge debt is fully paid, he receives this as good news. Now , was the debt paid to the banker before the debtor received the good news or was it actually paid before ? I say the debt was paid before the debtor received the good news of it. What say you ?

Also the argument can be made that the huge debt was no longer the one who was indebted at the moment the banker accepted the vow from the one who told the banker that He would pay the debt for the indebted, for this would be so if the banker had confidence and trusted in the one who made the promise. The banker would then be expecting the one who made the promise to keep His word.

Why? because at one time I was dead in sin, a child of wrath.

The elect were at one time sinners and at enmity with God by nature, but even then their sin debt was paid ! They were reconciled to God and Justified by the blood of Christ at that time. All that being a child of wrath means is that they were sinners and walked worthy of wrath as any other non elect person does..

And at some point in time God "made me alive in Christ," and "raised me up" into the heavenly places.

Yes the elect are at some point of time experimentally made alive, thats because Christ righteousness having been imputed to them demands Life, but they were positionally made alive with Christ together when God raised Him from the dead Eph 2:6


and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The word together here is important, for it gives us to know that God viewed Christ at His resurrection from the dead not as a mere private person but as the Head of His body the Church, they were One..

One more point, the very word "predestined" means that God destined something to happen BEFORE it happened.

Before it happened in time, but God is not governed by time. God's predestination is Eternal, that means something outside of time. God as Creator is not part of Creation and consequently there is no need for the succession of time in His realization of His decree, for God its just a constant now, time and its succession is for the impact of God's creatures to realize what is a constant Eternal Now to God, for God is forever in a constant present ! Hope that helps..

 

[savedbymercy]

skan

Life comes through faith, not the other way around.

Sorry, but thats error. Life comes through Jesus Christ ! Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 6:23


23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Faith comes with the Gift of Eternal Life..

Who is 'us?

The Chosen ones, the believers He was writing to !

thus Paul has simply said that God has predetermined to adopt all who believe

That is not what Paul said or meant, thats your spin on it. God's Predestination and adoption is according to God's Eternal Purpose and His own will which is outside of time, and is not determined by a creature's actions in time. In fact a creatures actions in time is determined by God's predestination as pointed out in Acts 2:23

The Elect believe or Trust as a result of what God did in Eternity, thats why Paul started at vs 3-12 of Eph 1, all that occurred leading up to the Trusting and believing in vs 13. That which was rehearsed in those verses was the Gospel of their Salvation, the things God hath done for them, and the Holy Spirit gave them ears to hear, and as a result they Trusted after hearing the Gospel of their Salvation..

They were told that God hath made them accepted in the beloved vs 6, they had nothing to do with that, it occurred before the foundation when they were Chosen in Christ vs 4. This being accepted in the Beloved was their Justification from all sin !

 

[Dr. Walter]

Hmmmmm, no answer yet! No answers to the posts that I have previously reposted over and over again! When a person is interpreting scripture correctly they can answer contextual based objections to their interpretation! You can't - you continue to run, make little snippet remarks!

Oh, is it really?? You see there can be no laying charge upon Christ before the foundation of the world unless first before the the foundation of the world in the mind of God there is a reason to lay such a charge upon Christ! Can you grasp that? Hence, in the mind of God condemnation upon the elect must logically precede any solution for that condemnation to be resolved. Hence, in the mind of God there must first be CONDEMNATION upon the elect before it can be charged to anyone else! Can you grasp that???

So either way you go, whether in eternity past in the mind of God or in actual time the elect were under condemnation FIRST, as the condemnation had to exist FIRST before condemnation could be charged to anyone else or otherwise there is nothing to charge Christ with! Can you grasp that? God must LOGICALLY conceive in His mind condemnation first before he can conceive in his mind the necessity to charge it to Christ! Can you grasp that? I am not talking about any kind of chronological order but a logical order.





What is "stupid" is to think that God IN HIS MIND purposes salvation before the world began before he conceives IN HIS MIND any need for salvation - that is what is "stupid." There is no need to concieve in his mind salvation for a people who have no need of salvation - that is what is "stupid."

Hence, condemnation/lost condition must logically precede a salvation purpose or else there is logically nothing needing salvation in the first place! There is no need to charge Christ with condemnation if there is no one one thought to be condemned first!

 

[12strings]

I'm still wondering what difference you are thinking this distinction makes. If I am saved only by grace, not by grace THROUGH FAITH?

...no answer yet for this one...

 

[savedbymercy]

I'm still wondering what difference you are thinking this distinction makes. If I am saved only by grace, not by grace THROUGH FAITH?

...no answer yet for this one...

I have explained my position enough to you now. Your going to believe what you believe, let it go..

 

[12strings]

I'm sorry my last post was not clear...I was not asking for more explanation of the position; I was asking, how would a different view of this issue affect my life in following Christ NOW? Is it just a philisophical argument, or will I approach some aspect of my discipleship differently?