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Justified By Works

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SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
If any one could show me from scripture that I’m wrong, I would gladly change my mind.

not if you are self-deluded, which you are on this, as you dismiss verses that you don't like, and put your own spin on others! You have yet to deal with Jonah and James on Rahab. Just as the Bible says it and not what you think that it says.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
FTR not once did Paul teach “justified by faith alone”. In fact, no where in the scriptures does anyone teach “justified by faith alone”. In fact, it is expressly taught in the scriptures that justification is NOT by faith alone. The early Reformers went too far in refuting the errors of Rome and there's been a domino effect in spreading their error over the centuries.
Well, the way the Scripture does teach it, Romans 4:2-5, ". . . For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."
 
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Mikey

Active Member
not if you are self-deluded, which you are on this, as you dismiss verses that you don't like, and put your own spin on others! You have yet to deal with Jonah and James on Rahab. Just as the Bible says it and not what you think that it says.

pot calling the kettle black comes to mind:rolleyes:
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
FTR not once did Paul teach “justified by faith alone”. In fact, no where in the scriptures does anyone teach “justified by faith alone”. In fact, it is expressly taught in the scriptures that justification is NOT by faith alone. The early Reformers went too far in refuting the errors of Rome and there's been a domino effect in spreading their error over the centuries.
Do you agree with the assertions of the Council of Trent?
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
The “normal” use of any word is always determined by context.

peace to you

can you quote ONE Greek lexicon which supports the meaning "vaildate" for the Greek "δικαιόω" in the passage in James? I have consulted Thayer, Parkhurst, Robinson, Abbott-Smith, and they all agree with Arndt & Gingrich:

a. of men dikaiou`sqai be acquitted, be pronounced and treated as righteous and thereby become divkaio", receive the divine gift of dikaiosuvnh, as a theological t.t. be justified Mt 12:37 ; Ac 13:39 ; Rv 22:11 t.r .; Ro 2:13 ; 3:20 (Ps 142:2 ), 24 , 28 ; 4:2 ; 5:1 , 9 ; 1 Cor 4:4 ; Gal 2:16 f (Ps 142:2 ); 3:11 , 24 ; 5:4 ; Tit 3:7 ; Phil 3:12 v.l .; B 4:10; 15:7; IPhld 8:2; Dg 9:4; ( w. aJgiavzesqai ) Hv 3, 9, 1. ouj para; tou`to dedikaivwmai I am not justified by this (after 1 Cor 4:4 ) IRo 5:1. i{na dikaiwqh`/ sou hJ savrx that your flesh (as the sinful part) may be acquitted Hs 5, 7, 1; d. e[rgoi" by (on the basis of) works, by what one does 1 Cl 30:3; cf. Js 2:21 , 24 f ( e[rgon 1a and pivsti" 2d d ); diÆ ejautw`n d. by oneself =as a result of one’s own accomplishments 1Cl 32:4.

These are the works that are used as standard when any Bible translation is made, and by students of the Bible all around the world!

Which Bible translation can you give, that translates the Greek as "vaildate", or gives that "sense"? James 2:25 Parallel: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

You are using your personal theology and undersatnding to force a strange meaning on the passage, because it challenges what you believe, and there is not way out for you!
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
As Calvin held, we are saved by faith alone, but the kind of faith that saves will not be alone, will have good works

Quote Calvin when it fits your theology, but ignore him on John 3:16!!!

Deal with the actual words of the Bible, "And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?" THIS is what the Word of God SAYS! Now prove this to be wrong?
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
can you quote ONE Greek lexicon which supports the meaning "vaildate" for the Greek "δικαιόω" in the passage in James? I have consulted Thayer, Parkhurst, Robinson, Abbott-Smith, and they all agree with Arndt & Gingrich:

a. of men dikaiou`sqai be acquitted, be pronounced and treated as righteous and thereby become divkaio", receive the divine gift of dikaiosuvnh, as a theological t.t. be justified Mt 12:37 ; Ac 13:39 ; Rv 22:11 t.r .; Ro 2:13 ; 3:20 (Ps 142:2 ), 24 , 28 ; 4:2 ; 5:1 , 9 ; 1 Cor 4:4 ; Gal 2:16 f (Ps 142:2 ); 3:11 , 24 ; 5:4 ; Tit 3:7 ; Phil 3:12 v.l .; B 4:10; 15:7; IPhld 8:2; Dg 9:4; ( w. aJgiavzesqai ) Hv 3, 9, 1. ouj para; tou`to dedikaivwmai I am not justified by this (after 1 Cor 4:4 ) IRo 5:1. i{na dikaiwqh`/ sou hJ savrx that your flesh (as the sinful part) may be acquitted Hs 5, 7, 1; d. e[rgoi" by (on the basis of) works, by what one does 1 Cl 30:3; cf. Js 2:21 , 24 f ( e[rgon 1a and pivsti" 2d d ); diÆ ejautw`n d. by oneself =as a result of one’s own accomplishments 1Cl 32:4.

These are the works that are used as standard when any Bible translation is made, and by students of the Bible all around the world!

Which Bible translation can you give, that translates the Greek as "vaildate", or gives that "sense"? James 2:25 Parallel: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

You are using your personal theology and undersatnding to force a strange meaning on the passage, because it challenges what you believe, and there is not way out for you!
Sigh...sbw...still missing James point. I believe the phrase is: "Missing the forest because of the trees."
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Quote Calvin when it fits your theology, but ignore him on John 3:16!!!

Deal with the actual words of the Bible, "And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?" THIS is what the Word of God SAYS! Now prove this to be wrong?
Rahab's faith was justified by her works. (Remember...James is talking about faith that works) Thus when he says that Rahab was justified by works, he is saying that her claim of faith was justified by the fact that she had works that backed up her claim. If you have no work, you have no faith.

God gives faith and this faith does the good works God has ordained for us. (Ephesians 2:10)
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well, the way the Scripture does teach it, Romans 4:2-5, ". . . For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

Instead of pitting scripture against scripture harmonize the above with this:

Romans 2:5-7....the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:...

While you're at it harmonize these:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3
 

Mikey

Active Member
We are either justified by Faith or we are justified by Works. The scriptures are clear that is Faith not works that saves.

"This instance of Rahab is joined to that of Abraham, either to show, that none of any condition, degree, or nation, was ever numbered among true believers, without good works; or else to prove, that faith, wherever it is sincere and genuine, is likewise operative and fruitful, not only in older disciples and stronger, such as Abraham was, but even proportionably in those that are weaker, and but newly converted to the faith, which was Rahab’s case...
Justified by works; in the same sense as Abraham was, i.e. declared to be righteous, and her sincerity approved in the face of the congregation of Israel, when, upon her hiding the spies, God gave a commandment to save her alive, though the rest of her people were to be destroyed" - Matthew Pool

"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works? In the same sense in which Abraham was, showing by her act that her faith was genuine, and that it was not a mere cold and speculative assent to the truths of religion. Her act showed that she truly believed God. If that act had not been performed, the fact would have shown that her faith was not genuine, and she could not have been justified. God saw her faith as it was; he saw that it would produce acts of obedience, and he accepted her as righteous. The act which she performed was the public manifestation of her faith, the evidence that she was justified" - Barnes

"Those are wrong who put a mere notional belief of the gospel for the whole of evangelical religion, as many now do. No doubt, true faith alone, whereby men have part in Christ's righteousness, atonement, and grace, saves their souls; but it produces holy fruits, and is shown to be real by its effect on their works; while mere assent to any form of doctrine, or mere historical belief of any facts, wholly differs from this saving faith. A bare profession may gain the good opinion of pious people; and it may procure, in some cases, worldly good things; but what profit will it be, for any to gain the whole world, and to lose their souls? Can this faith save him?" - Matthew Henry

"After Abraham, the father of the Jews, the apostle cites Rahab, a woman and a sinner of the Gentiles, to show that in every nation and sex true faith produces works, and is perfected by them; that is, by the grace of God working in the believer, while he is showing his faith by his works" - Benson


The context of James and the example usage of Abraham is demonstrating that true faith produces good works.(James 2:26) Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, for if it was then our lives will demonstrate that new life. Faith will become seen by the fruit produced.

Romans 4: 1-6 (NKJV)
"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works."

It is not works but faith which justifies! “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Don't even know what that is.

Do you agree with the assertion of scripture that we are justified by the blood of Christ?

I shared the various claims of the Council of Trent with you in an earlier post. Read what the Roman Catholic Church stated as they rejected the Reformation. You are sounding like a Roman Catholic.

Let's look at Romans 5:1-11:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Notice that both faith and atoning sacrifice justify us and save us.
Notice that Paul is addressing the elect in this passage, not speaking about a universal atonement.
Notice that God is the cause of our salvation and the effect is our belief.

redneck, thanks for bringing up Romans 5. It is a great reminder of God's sovereign work in reconciling those whom he chooses.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Instead of pitting scripture against scripture harmonize the above with this:

Romans 2:5-7....the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:...

While you're at it harmonize these:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3
James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Galatians 2:21, ". . . for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Romans 3:19, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
Romans 6:14, ". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ."
And there are more references and contexts.
What is the difficulty you think you see?
 

Mikey

Active Member
I am not sure that I agree with what is taught in these videos about "decent" and "appropriate" commentaries, but at least I now know what is expected of me when people say that to me. I had to work really hard to find the free resources that allow me to participate in certain conversations without having to pay for that priviledge.

LibGuides: Bible Commentaries Guide: Home

Media Player

The Research Process

Good information, thanks.:)

Another useful free resource is Bible Hub- Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages ,provides commentaries, lexicons, concordence, different bible translation comparisons, etc. .
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Instead of pitting scripture against scripture harmonize the above with this:

Romans 2:5-7....the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:...

While you're at it harmonize these:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3
God always saved by Grace alone thru faith alone!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We are either justified by Faith or we are justified by Works. The scriptures are clear that is Faith not works that saves.

"This instance of Rahab is joined to that of Abraham, either to show, that none of any condition, degree, or nation, was ever numbered among true believers, without good works; or else to prove, that faith, wherever it is sincere and genuine, is likewise operative and fruitful, not only in older disciples and stronger, such as Abraham was, but even proportionably in those that are weaker, and but newly converted to the faith, which was Rahab’s case...
Justified by works; in the same sense as Abraham was, i.e. declared to be righteous, and her sincerity approved in the face of the congregation of Israel, when, upon her hiding the spies, God gave a commandment to save her alive, though the rest of her people were to be destroyed" - Matthew Pool

"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works? In the same sense in which Abraham was, showing by her act that her faith was genuine, and that it was not a mere cold and speculative assent to the truths of religion. Her act showed that she truly believed God. If that act had not been performed, the fact would have shown that her faith was not genuine, and she could not have been justified. God saw her faith as it was; he saw that it would produce acts of obedience, and he accepted her as righteous. The act which she performed was the public manifestation of her faith, the evidence that she was justified" - Barnes

"Those are wrong who put a mere notional belief of the gospel for the whole of evangelical religion, as many now do. No doubt, true faith alone, whereby men have part in Christ's righteousness, atonement, and grace, saves their souls; but it produces holy fruits, and is shown to be real by its effect on their works; while mere assent to any form of doctrine, or mere historical belief of any facts, wholly differs from this saving faith. A bare profession may gain the good opinion of pious people; and it may procure, in some cases, worldly good things; but what profit will it be, for any to gain the whole world, and to lose their souls? Can this faith save him?" - Matthew Henry

"After Abraham, the father of the Jews, the apostle cites Rahab, a woman and a sinner of the Gentiles, to show that in every nation and sex true faith produces works, and is perfected by them; that is, by the grace of God working in the believer, while he is showing his faith by his works" - Benson


The context of James and the example usage of Abraham is demonstrating that true faith produces good works.(James 2:26) Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, for if it was then our lives will demonstrate that new life. Faith will become seen by the fruit produced.

Romans 4: 1-6 (NKJV)
"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works."

It is not works but faith which justifies! “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"
Rahab and Abraham demonstrated their faith in Yahweh and trusting Him by their good works, but Grace alone thru faith alone saves!
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Galatians 2:21, ". . . for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Romans 3:19, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
Romans 6:14, ". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ."
And there are more references and contexts.
What is the difficulty you think you see?

what about James 2:25, is there a contradiction?
 
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