KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

[Claudia_T]

Mike,


I think that in Romans 2 it is referring to the fact that they boasted in the law but didnt really keep it like they should have done.


In Romans 3 it yes, talks all about being justified by faith... we know everyone is condemned under the law... everyone has fallen short of it, etc..

I of course agree with that..

But I guess it seems like you dont take the next step in the whole thing...

Meaning it seems like you dont think after that, when we are all condemned by the law that then we die or are slain by it, then we are free to "marry" Jesus when our old man of sin dies... and Jesus then fills us with His Spirit, enabling us to then keep the Law.

Thats where it doesnt seem like lots of people continue on with this entire process.

See. in Galatians chapter 5 it explains what I mean…

Galatians 5:
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Do you understand now that when we crucify our sin,,, crucify the flesh... and begin walking in the Spririt... producing the fruits of the Spirit (love, defined in the Bible as the ten commandments -Romans 13:8-10) - that THEN we are no longer "Under the CONDEMNATION OF that law"? Why? because... Galatians 5 verse 22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There IS NO LAW against love! Love IS the Law, the Law IS love! so when we begin keeping the law, THEN we are no longer "under the condemnation of the law of sin and death" you see? Why? BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER VIOLATING THAT LAW!


And now you might say, "But we are under the new covenant now, and thus we no longer are expected to keep God's ten commandment law!" Do you feel this way? ...if so, then you are misunderstanding the old and new covenants!

The terms of the old covenant were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

But the new covenant was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law.

"This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts . . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34.

Hebrews 8:
6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

 

[Claudia_T]

See, it seems like to me that alot of you guys dont carry this thing through the entire process...


the whole thing of the law and the gospel is to end up fulfilling the righteousness of Christ in you.. LITERALLY...

Not just a covering but also actually doing the righteousness of Christ...


see how this says you are only righteous if you DO righteousness???

1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


Now Mike, I dont know you all that well so maybe I just misunderstand you... but it just appears to me you stop at a certain point in this entire process and dont carry it through to its completion and what the law and the gospel were meant to do in the believer.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

yeah and what this means is misunderstood by lots of people because the first "husband" is US, ME, YOU... our old sinful self. We are married to it and cant get out of it. we sin and are condemned over and over like Paul when he couldnt get out of that vicious cycle.

The only way out of this marriage is for the first husband to DIE.

You die to self, and marry Jesus, then He fills you with His Spirit and you walk in "newness of life... keeping the fruits of the Spirit and "against such there is no law" ... no more law to condemn you!! why? because NOW YOU ARE KEEPING THE LAW THROUGH THE SPIRIT!!

Thats what people dont seem to get here.


7:2
For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

7:3
So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

 

[D28guy]

BrotherBob,

"D28guy;
I didn't say a born again was the one committing adultery. I said a person in the world who is in the very act of adultery and ask God to save him at the same time will God hear him."

Oh, well I misunderstood. I thought you meant a christian passing away while committing adultery

Concerning the lost man who realises that he is having a heart attack or something during adultery, if he realises he is dieing and calls upon Christ, crying out for mercy, of course he will be saved.

During those moments God could very well cause all those times when he heard the gospel and rejected it to come to his recollection, and he could very well be born again...if he embraces Christ through faith.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

Gotta go to work now. I'll respond to your posts later tonight.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Brother Bob]

D28guy;
Don't have to quit the adultery or nothing what a way to go. I wouldn't have that if it was wrapped in a 100 dollar bill. A couple in Flordia was in the open field committing adultery and lightening hit them I am afraid they are where the rich man is. Christianity it not foolishness.

 

[gekko]

sadly claudia. alot of christians think that once the red stain on their white collered shirt has been washed clean by the Lord, that the red wine will just run off of them if they spill the glass again.

sadly these christians believe that once we come to Christ that they can do what they want because they've interpreted scripture to say that.

sadly these christians look at the perfect and holy law of God and say "woe is me for i cannot do all that!" and then that means they won't try to follow the law. the least they could do is try "i can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

sadly they think that once they have the Grace of God (obtained not just by asking for it - but by becoming righteous through Christ) and that's it. that's all that needs to be done they can live their life like anything - as long as they come back to ask forgiveness.

sadly even more and more churches are teaching this doctrine of devils.

sadly i will probably get repremanded for saying they follow this doctrine of devils.

sadly they dont follow scripture.

sadly they say they do fully.

sadly i do not. i pray God will help me become righteous in his sight.

sadly God will look down on many christians and see the christians themselves instead of His Son in them.

sadly that some will come back and mock me and say "ok mr. perfect" - i aint perfect.

lots of sadlies.

"O wretched man that I am!"

praise the Lord for giving me life today. for i could have died last night.

praise the Lord for giving me another chance at becoming righteous in his sight by only his help.

praise the Lord for the law for showing me what sin is. for had i not have known what sin was - i wouldn't be on this forum. i would be against following all the law.

praise the Lord for saving my soul just the beginning of this year - before that i was a goat. and now i am a sheep according to scripture.

praise the Lord for opening my eyes and giving me a passion for the lost - for i would not be following Jesus if i don't.

praise the Lord for those on this forum - its great to have this time of fellowship together - even though we have our disagreements - im glad we can laugh most the time after it all.

praise the Lord for the mod's. because this wouldn't be here if it we'rent for them.

praise the Lord for his mighty works and miracles and everything the Lord has made - for without it there we'd be in a pretty dull holding cell of this earth. love the a/c.

praise the Lord that because he's saved me - i love him even more - therefore i wish to follow him in all aspects - not just what i want - but what He wants.

praise the Lord. period.

God bless.
gek.

 

[Dustin]

The Lord knows who are His and who aren't. Praise the Lord, because salvation is of the Lord, and not the law.

 

[Brother Bob]

Nobody and I mean nobody said it was of the Law!!!

 

[gekko]

i know that brotherbob.

sadly they think we say that...

praise the Lord its not.

 

[Dustin]

I don't think that you say it is of the law Gekko, I'm saying that if a person is "soundly saved" then they WILL bear fruit and follow the law. I'm agreeing with you if anything. It's not really our jobs to say "oh if you don't do such and such you aren't saved" it's God's job, like I said, the Lord knows who are his.

 

[Claudia_T]

gekko,

I used to do that too, I would look at the Bible and the Law of God and see the many things we are supposed to be doing or not doing.

And I'd get so discouraged. Then I found myself wanting to just hang on those Bible verses that seemed to say that we dont have to do anything "just believe".

It had to do with three things, really,

1.I didnt have confidence in myself to be able to do KNOW HOW to do it.

2. I really didnt believe God could help me to do it.


3. I didnt know WHAT to do, or have confidence God would show me what all I needed to be doing or not doing.


FINALLY, I realized some things though.


I realized I didnt really have faith at all in God.

GOD could show me EVERY SINGLE THING that He wanted me to do or stop doing, out of His Word.


GOD could give me power to overcome every sin.

GOD could show me HOW TO overcome by faith in His power.


You see, though I thought I was living by faith, I really didnt even have any real faith at all.


I wasnt believing in God at all. I was looking at what I, Claudia, couldnt do.


Consequently I had twisted the Scriptures around to accomodate my own lack of trust in God's ability and willingness to help me.

Not only that, but I was afraid of what all such a surrender to God would involve and so wished to avoid it. Of course I didnt admit that to myself however. I instead conviced myself I didnt HAVE TO do it. "All I need is faith", I'd tell myself.


I also didnt realize the deception Satan was playing on me, by making me not realize that SIN IS DESTRUCTIVE AND HURTS US...

You see, God gives us rules to PROTECT US. Satan tries to convince us we are having to give up something that would make us happy. But any time we break any of God's rules it causes us misery, if not now, then later. God loves us. Just as an earthly parent makes rules to protect their children, so does our heavenly Father do the same for us.


Prov:29:18: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Ps:119:165: Great peace have they which love thy law

Ps:40:8: I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.


Do you think that is any different today?

Sin never brings happiness. People can talk of so-called "liberty" while living in sin but its all a huge lie thought up by the mind of Satan.


Keeping God's Law brings true liberty, and thats why Jesus Himself said:


Jn:8:32-36:
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Satan wants to keep us as bound up slaves of sin. While he deceives people into thinking they need to be free of the law, instead.

While they're singin' "Free From The Law, O Happy Condition" ... Satan's laughing at them on their Road to Perdition.

Why anybody would want to continue on in sin... continue on in the very thing that nailed our Saviour to a Cross... is beyond me.

Instead of dying to self daily like the Apostle Paul said, instead of crucifying self, they'd rather crucify Jesus afresh...

Heb:6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."


Claudia

[ May 09, 2006, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Dustin]

Right exactly what I said, it's not US following the law, it's the Holy Spirit that allows us to. We in and of ourselves cannot and by nature will not, but once God unblinds our eyes and our hearts, then we see how unable we are. Then we will, by the Lord and nothing else be able to love and follow his law.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well said Claudia;

BBob

 

[gekko]

yes... well said - although i want to point out the verse where it says "sin is pleasurable but only for a season" i dont have the referance in front of me - i can't find it. anybody know?

so sin does make people happy - only for a season.

i dont think "happy" is the right term to describe the true christian.

i think its more the Joy of the Lord.

think of it this way: your boat has sunk, and now you're in the lifeboat, joyful that you're alive - but you look out at the others at sea... and, you're not happy, but your heart goes out for them - and so should your actions...

see its not necessarily happiness that happens when we come to Christ - it shouldn't be to make us happy - no, we whould come to Christ for righteousness... the Joy is a fruit of the spirit.

i noticed you had said that sin doesn't make us happy. im sure you were refering to true christians. i just wanted to go into detail a little more... hehe. its just me that's all.

God bless.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hebrews, chapter 11


"24": By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

"25": Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
We are not talking about Salvation here. Salvation is of the Lord. We are talking if a man has to quit doing wrong, can he be in the act of adultery and be saved without first quitting. You still haven't answered it.

I can't put it too plain without getting thrown off here, but can he be with a woman not his wife, committing adultery with her and be saved at the same time. answer please?

I hope no one here thinks I am saying or have ever said the Law will give eternal life for if it would there would of been no need for Jesus to die, but I believe in "cleansing your hands you sinner", and to do that you must stop lending your members to commit such acts.

I do believe I recall something like this in a couple of places in the Bible, as to a man being "with a woman not his wife, committing adultery with her and be saved at the same time", to use your words.

I'd suggest that David would qualify as one of those. I'd also suggest that the individual in I Cor. who was with "his father's wife", is another.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by gekko:
yes. free from the law of sin and death - and now we are part of the law of liberty.

does that sound right? please tell me if im taking that out of context...

Right on!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Dustin:
I don't think that you say it is of the law Gekko, I'm saying that if a person is "soundly saved" then they WILL bear fruit and follow the law. I'm agreeing with you if anything. It's not really our jobs to say "oh if you don't do such and such you aren't saved" it's God's job, like I said, the Lord knows who are his.

""soundly saved""????

Now that's a new one, for me at least. (Although I do not know, at this minute, who first used this phrase, here.)

How about "saved" or "not saved"? Wouldn't that be a bit more in keeping with Biblical terminology?

Ed

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2 is filled with the "contrast" language showing the failing case and how it is contrasted with the successful case.

Yet many who choose a "sifting and snippet" approach to scripture - turn a blind eye to the contrasting language in Romans 2 - hoping to see only "condemnation for Jews".

Still - there are Christians today that have faithfully shown a deep appreciation for all of God's word - and all of Romans 2.

Romans 2 actually deals with the impartiality of God wrt to Jews and Gentiles, those who have the bible and those who do not. (this means it addresses everyone - the saved and the unsaved) all come from either the group that has the bible or the group that does not. All come from either the Jews or the non-Jews. This is a globally applicable chapter. And it starts with the call to repentance (and there for confession and forgiveness).

Romans2:
1 therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 and we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 but do you suppose this, o man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Now from Romans 1 to 2:3 we have had introduced the subject of God's infallible judgment and contrasted it to man's faulty judgment

Lets pay special attention to the details of the starting Context that PAUL gives in his letter to the Romans and SEE how "choice" plays out in this IMPARTIAL system where the IMPARTIAL God calls ALL to repentance.

Rom 2

4 or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?[/b

.

Vs 4 shows us that the mercy - kindness - grace leads us to repent. This chapter starts with the Gospel basics of God's offer to grant repentance and that all need to repent.

Note: The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.

Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;

Rom2:
5 but because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.

He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.

Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.

Romans 2 - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

Rom 2:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Barns commentary agrees –

Albert Barnes on
Eternal life....
That is, God will "render" eternal life to those who seek it in this manner. This is a great principle; and this shows that the apostle means by "their deeds," (Romans 2:6,) not merely their external conduct, but their inward thoughts, and efforts evinced by their seeking for glory, etc. For the meaning of the expression "eternal life," See Barnes "John 5:24".
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=ro&chapter=002