Leaning Calvinist, Push me in, or Pull me back

[glad4mercy]

The Father draws unto Jesus all who will be getting saved, not a Universal drawing to all sinners, but to some.

Everyone who hears and learns fromthe Father comes to Jesus. Some hear but do not learn. They reject the testimony of God concerning His Son. But the testimony is there.

So what scripture do you have to demonstrate that God wants /wills some to remain in unbelief and under His wrath, so He therefore excludes them uconditionally? They are excluded because of unbelief, not because God rejected them unconditionally. If you say they perish because God decreed to exclude them unconditionally, then Jesus' words "He who does not believe is condemned already BECAUSE they have not believed the testimony that God gave. Concerning His Son.

You Calvinists have reprobation as the reason for unbelief. Jesus said the opposite. He said that the unbelief was the reason for their reprobation.

 

[glad4mercy]

So which did Jesus say?

A. Unbelievers don't believe because they are already condemned

or

B. they are already condemned because they do not believe.

My Bible says the latter...choice b

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand what you are saying and I do apologize for the untimely interjection. I shouldn't have interjected.

It's all good....in fact I will start another thread to try and get at some of your concerns. I have jumped in threads as they are open and maybe did not read the flow of the thread...it is okay. I was working all day so my responses were not as clear as they should be.

 

[Iconoclast]

So which did Jesus say?

A. Unbelievers don't believe because they are already condemned

or

B. they are already condemned because they do not believe.

My Bible says the latter...choice b

What did Jesus say:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Looks Like he declared "A" was true.

 

[JonShaff]

What did Jesus say:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Looks Like he declared "A" was true.

Jesus was addressing 1st century Jews in a Book considered to be a historical narrative. The "ye" or "you all" was unbelieving Israelites--Specifically Jewish Leaders. Context my dear brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

"glad4mercy,

Everyone who hears and learns fromthe Father comes to Jesus. Some hear but do not learn. They reject the testimony of God concerning His Son. But the testimony is there.

This section follows the clear declaration that ALL the Father HAS GIVEN shall come....not the other way around. Do not pull an Adrian Rogers on us.

So what scripture do you have to demonstrate that God wants /wills some to remain in unbelief and under His wrath,

Since the fall that is the condition of every person who God has not elected.No additional scripture is needed.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

so He therefore excludes them uconditionally?

Are you suggesting mankind is sinless and innocent? Why would a just God do anything against anyone who was innocent. The problem is sin.

They are excluded because of unbelief, not because God rejected them unconditionally.

They are excluded because their sin is not covered. They are dead in sin.

If you say they perish because God decreed to exclude them unconditionally,

If you say????? Who says anything like this When you start to speculate like this...it keeps you away from truth...

You Calvinists have reprobation as the reason for unbelief

No...the fall is the biblical reason for unbelief....Calvinists just believe it like they should....Do You?



.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus was addressing 1st century Jews in a Book considered to be a historical narrative. The "ye" or "you all" was unbelieving Israelites--Specifically Jewish Leaders. Context my dear brother.

JON S......the question is what did Jesus say was the reason they did not believe??? Truth my brother, truth...
Jon...are you a sheep, even though you are not a first century Jew?

 

[JonShaff]

JON S......the question is what did Jesus say was the reason they did not believe??? Truth my brother, truth...
Jon...are you a sheep, even though you are not a first century Jew?

That's not the point. In order to do proper hermeneutics, we must understand the meaning of the dialogue as it pertains to the audience in its original setting.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Pastor_Bob,

In my opinion, Peter is referring to the establishment of certainty within ourselves. It is obvious that he is talking to saved people (brethren); so, he cannot be telling them to make sure they are one of the elect. The question is not one of security but of assurance. Christians who do not have the sense of assurance are just as secure as those who do, but they are not enjoying the spiritual position they have in God's family. Christians who do not have a sense of assurance are easily defeated by Satan and are constantly discouraged in their walk with God. We are to exercise diligence to assure ourselves, to examine the evidence from God's Word and apply what God has said to our own lives.

I have indeed made my calling and election sure. I have also preached messages dealing with growth in the Christian life that would have included this passage.

Hello Pastor Bob,
Now here you have correctly explained the passage and why it is vital to obey this command. You correctly have instructed your congregation so they can be prepared for spiritual battle.
A saint with assurance of faith is fit for the masters use. So the doctrine of election is a great blessing for God's saints. We can agree on this

It does make me wonder however why earlier you said this?

I would have significant disagreement regarding Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace.

What is your significant disagreement?

 

[Iconoclast]

That's not the point. In order to do proper hermeneutics, we must understand the meaning of the dialogue as it pertains to the audience in its original setting.

Well Jon....it is exactly the point...I do not care if it was first century jews, present day jews, The jews during Korah's rebellion...

you believe not BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP.... You are not going to do and "end run" with the context card, the first century jew God...this is not significant at all as far as this is concerned.

 

[JonShaff]

Well Jon....it is exactly the point...I do not care if it was first century jews, present day jews, The jews during Korah's rebellion...

you believe not BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP.... You are not going to do and "end run" with the context card, the first century jew God...this is not significant at all as far as this is concerned.

It is significant...and I'll show you why.

Explain for us the connection between Chapter 9 and Chapter 10. What was going on in Chapter 9 that led to Christ's dialogue in Chapter 10?

 

[InTheLight]

Does or doesn't?

D'oh! Obviously it DOESN'T change the fact that God is sovereign in salvation.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[glad4mercy]

What did Jesus say:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Looks Like he declared "A" was true.

Were you a sheep before the New Birth, when you did not listen to His voice and follow Him?
Or did you become a sheep when you when you heard His voice, drawn by the Father to follow Him?
Were you a sheep before you believed, or did you become a sheep when you trusted Him.

For His sheep listen to His voice, know Him, and are known of Him, and follow Him. These are people that are already regenerated. These are people who already believe. They are His sheep because they believe.

1 John 5:1- Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

1 John 5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

God does not prescribe people making Him a liar. If someone makes God a liar, it is not because God willed it. It is because they did it on their OWN VOLITION.

God does not unconditionally exclude people because He wants them to make Him a liar. If the saved are elected unconditionally, then the lost are excluded unconditionally.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you have the view that some are born sheep, and some are born goats?

Not I, I have us all born goats becoming sheep in the New Birth.

Were you a sheep before the New Birth, when you did not listen to His voice and follow Him?
Or did you become a sheep when you when you heard His voice, drawn by the Father to follow Him?
Were you a sheep before you believed, or did you become a sheep when you trusted Him.

For His sheep listen to His voice, know Him, and are known of Him, and follow Him.

These are people that are already regenerated.

So we are not regenerated because we are His sheep, we are His sheep because He regenerated us.

So we are not sheep because we were born sheep. We were not sheep from the womb. We are sheep by the Grace of God through CALLING, REGENERATION, JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION, ADOPTION, etc.

This is completely wrong....
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The sheep were sheep before the world was.....they were lost, but Jesus finds All the Father gives to Him. Not one is lost...He seeks and saves everyone.
I am not so certain your questions are sincere now, as you seek to put the cart before the horse.

 

[glad4mercy]

This is completely wrong....
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The sheep were sheep before the world was.....they were lost, but Jesus finds All the Father gives to Him. Not one is lost...He seeks and saves everyone.
I am not so certain your questions are sincere now, as you seek to put the cart before the horse.

I already knew you or someone else were going to go to John 10. John 10 is one of my favorite chapter.

You are conflating John 10 with the parable of the lost sheep. Two very different passages with two very different PURPOSES and APPLICATIONS. The lost sheep has the same purpose, meaning, and application as the parable of the lost coin and the parable of the lost son. Did the lost coin listen to the women's voice and come to her? Did the lost son return at the invitation of His Father, or because He came to Himself?

The purpose of the parables in Luke 15 is not even about the same thing as what Jesus said in John 10. It is about the Pharisees and Saducees criticizing Jesus for eating with Publicans and sinners when they should have been rejoicing. A careful exegesis of the text makes this clear.

And the only difference between you and a goat is that you were born a sheep and He was born a goat?

Are sheep adulterers and fornicators and blasphemers, or is it more fitting to say "and such were some of them, but now they are washed, justified and sanctified...?

...if some people are born sheep, then the rest are born goats. But the Bible does not say that people are condemned because they were born a certain way. JESUS and ALL the Scriptures said they are condemned because they do not believe.

God doesn't exclude people unconditionally so they can be His goats to burn in the fire. Jesus paid the price of death for every man, though of course we know that the price is not applied or communicated to any except who believe. (the sheep).

Jesus tasted death for every man (sheep and goat) so that He might save those who believe (the sheep)

You have people condemned based on the fact that they were born goats.

And my questions were sincere. I asked you and you did not satisfactorily answer my question

 

[Iconoclast]

I already knew you or someone else were going to go to John 10. John 10 is one of my favorite chapter.

So you were a sheep when you weren't listening to His voice or following Him? And the only difference between you and a goat is that you were born a sheep and He was born a goat?

Are sheep adulterers and fornicators and blasphemers, or is it more fitting to say "and such were some of them, but now they are washed, justified and sanctified...

...if some people are born sheep, then the rest are born goats. But the Bible does not say that people are not condemned because they were born a certain way. JESUS said they are condemned because they do not believe.

You have people condemned based on the fact that they were born goats.

And my questions were sincere. I asked you and you did not satisfactorily answer my question

You have no understanding here at all...
Does Ezk 34 say that goats were in view...or lost sheep who are going to be found? You are completely ignoring the fall into sin and death in every thread.

You have people condemned based on the fact that they were born goats.

They are born sinners...what is so hard to grasp about this...ALL Sinned at one point in time...the fall.
Jesus saves a multitude of Sinners In Christ Himself...they are there because if the Father did not give them to the Son...no one would be saved.

 

[glad4mercy]

You have no understanding here at all...
Does Ezk 34 say that goats were in view...or lost sheep who are going to be found? You are completely ignoring the fall into sin and death in every thread.



They are born sinners...what is so hard to grasp about this...ALL Sinned at one point in time...the fall.
Jesus saves a multitude of Sinners In Christ Himself...they are there because if the Father did not give them to the Son...no one would be saved.

The lost sheep is talking about the house of Israel.

I do not ignore the Fall in any thread. I have always agreed with "moral inability", depravity, and the saved by Grace through faith alone. The sheep fell along with the goats, but God's grace is greater than the Fall. Where sin abounds, Grace much more abounds...etc

God who will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4

The sheep and goats are ALL born sinners. But God extends Grace. The sheep listen and follow, the goats do not believe, do not obey, and perish. But God does not condemn people because they were born goats. God condemns people for UNBELIEF. Period. If they were born goats and could not do otherwise, then...

a. They would be condemned for unbelief
b. And unbelief would be caused by the fact that they are goats.
c. Therefore, the goathood would be the primary cause and unbelief a secondary cause for their condemnation.

But God does not condemn because someone was born a goat. God condemns because they DID NOT BELIEVE!

Justified by faith (conditional). Condemned for unbelief (conditional)

Not justified because you were born a sheep or condemned because you were born a goat.

You have God determining who would be sheep and who would be goats UNCONDITIONALLY before the foundation of the world. Doomed from the womb. But Jesus said "whoever does not believe is condemned already BECAUSE HE has not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

Not that they did not believe because they were marked for condemnation unconditionally before they were born. Marked for condemnation because they make God a liar (1 John 5:10) and because they do not believe. The wrath of God abides on them because they do not believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

glad4mercy,

I already knew you or someone else were going to go to John 10. John 10 is one of my favorite chapter.

It is even better when you understand it

So you were a sheep when you weren't listening to His voice or following Him?

Yes...lost sheep are sinners even as others:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

And the only difference between you and a goat is that you were born a sheep and He was born a goat?

Both are born dead in sin...sinners....The sheep alone are effectually drawn.

Are sheep adulterers and fornicators and blasphemers, or is it more fitting to say "and such were some of them, but now they are washed, justified and sanctified...?

The verse is clear isn't it?

...if some people are born sheep

,
They are...

then the rest are born goats

What are the characteristics of a goat? are they nice people?

. But the Bible does not say that people are condemned because they were born a certain way.

Anyone outside of Christ on the last day goes into second death...Your philosophy is not going to change biblical fact.

JESUS and ALL the Scriptures said they are condemned because they do not believe.

Unbelief is a sin, but all non sheep sin and sin not paid for sends sinners to hell...
Unbelievers are unbelievers...because they are not sheep....so they do not believe, they do not want to believe, and they never will believe, because they love their sin.

God doesn't exclude people unconditionally so they can be His goats to burn in the fire

.
Do not blame God for mans sin....

Jesus paid the price of death for every man,

That is a false and defective view of the atonement....that is two different threads rolled into one.

though of course we know that the price is not applied or communicated to any except who believe. (the sheep).

Jesus died for the sheep.....while they were yet sinners...their belief did not merit anything, their belief is a gift from God.

Jesus tasted death for every man (sheep and goat) so that He might save those who believe (the sheep)

No...He took upon Him the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Adam.

You have people condemned based on the fact that they were born goats

.
The wrath of God is abiding on those outside of Christ.

And my questions were sincere. I asked you and you did not satisfactorily answer my question

Does not look like it to me...you were answered but do not like the answers.

 

[Iconoclast]

The lost sheep is talking about the house of Israel.

I do not ignore the Fall in any thread. I have always agreed with "moral inability", depravity, and the saved by Grace through faith alone. The sheep fell along with the goats, but God's grace is greater than the Fall. Where sin abounds, Grace much more abounds...etc

God who will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4

The sheep and goats are ALL born sinners. But God extends Grace. God does not condemn people because they were born goats. God condemns people for UNBELIEF. Period.

Justified by faith (conditional). Condemned for unbelief (conditional)

Not justified because you were born a sheep or condemned because you were born a goat.

You have God determining who would be sheep and who would be goats UNCONDITIONALLY before the foundation of the world. Doomed from the womb. But Jesus said "whoever does not believe is condemned already BECAUSE HE has not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

Not that they did not believe because they were marked for condemnation unconditionally before they were born. Marked for condemnation because they make God a liar (1 John 5:10) and because they do not believe. The wrath of God abides on them because they do not believe.

Show one verse where God saves or seeks goats...just one...go ahead...
each verse you are using here incorrectly.

 

[Iconoclast]

"glad4mercy,

The sheep and goats are ALL born sinners. But God extends Grace. The sheep listen and follow, the goats do not believe, do not obey, and perish. But God does not condemn people because they were born goats. God condemns people for UNBELIEF. Period. If they were born goats and could not do otherwise, then...

People are condemned for sins not atoned for, ...many have lived and died without even hearing the gospel, they died in their sins plural....they never even heard the gospel...

here is a hint;
4 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

and how shall they hear without a preacher?