Let's Talk About The Word Draw..

[Reformed1689]

Are you going from English to Greek?

I believe you have that backwards...

 

[Reformed1689]

I know, I do not use it . look up the Greek word pas and helko not the English. post what the definations

Helko:
to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw, with implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of pers. is unwilling to do so voluntarily, in either case with implication of exertion on the part of the mover τὶ someth. a sword (Soph., Ant. 1233; Libanius, Or. 13 p. 73, 5 F. ξίφος) J 18:10;

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 318.

 

[McCree79]

Are you going from English to Greek?

What? No. Why would I do that? I am working with παντας

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[loDebar]

πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.



KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x

All 8 times drag would not fit in the verses

The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω (ἑλκύσω Rec.elzJohn 12:32); 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ((infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, ἑλκύσαι R {s} G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, § 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10(Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.

 

[loDebar]

Helko:
to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw, with implication that the object being moved is incapable of propelling itself or in the case of pers. is unwilling to do so voluntarily, in either case with implication of exertion on the part of the mover τὶ someth. a sword (Soph., Ant. 1233; Libanius, Or. 13 p. 73, 5 F. ξίφος) J 18:10;

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 318.

David , how is this prompt you for drag?

 

[Reformed1689]

πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.



KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x

All 8 times drag would not fit in the verses

The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω (ἑλκύσω Rec.elzJohn 12:32); 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ((infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, ἑλκύσαι R {s} G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, § 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10(Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.

All: I have not disputed it means all. But the context dictates what all means. It means all people groups.

Draw: Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Reformed1689]

David , how is this prompt you for drag?

That is the basic definition. The full entry is a page long. That being said how do you not see a dragging in that definition. Oh right, because you keep going after the English terms and try force specific English definitions into the verse.

 

[McCree79]

what a question,

pas
individually each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everythin

collectively some of all types

this word never means some or partial

We also aren't dealing with the lexical form πας. We are working with πάντας. A dictionary limited to just the lexical form will not help you here.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[loDebar]

That is the basic definition. The full entry is a page long. That being said how do you not see a dragging in that definition. Oh right, because you keep going after the English terms and try force specific English definitions into the verse.

because it is not being used as drag in the other uses

 

[loDebar]

We also aren't dealing with the lexical form πας. We are working with πάντας. A dictionary limited to just the lexical form will not help you here.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

is it masculine plural in the verses, I have πᾶς • (pâs) (feminine πᾶσᾰ, neuter πᾶν) (in the plural) all, every, each. (in the singular) whole.

Why do you have πάντας?

 

[loDebar]

We also aren't dealing with the lexical form πας. We are working with πάντας. A dictionary limited to just the lexical form will not help you here.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Is this word in the verses? I was going by Strong's

I understand it means ALL

i undestand your point but it means all on an individual basis, not as a group but each of the group

 

[McCree79]

πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.



KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x

All 8 times drag would not fit in the verses

The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω (ἑλκύσω Rec.elzJohn 12:32); 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ((infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, ἑλκύσαι R {s} G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, § 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10(Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.

You said ἕλκουσιν cant mean drag in James 2:6, yet you quoted the above which says "a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off)" in regards to James 2:6.



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[McCree79]

Why do you have πάντας?

....because the Greek says πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.

No article used. Plural. Which means it has the range of meaning "every kind of" and "any entity out of a totality" both quotes from 2 separate lexicons. The latter being the BDAG

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[loDebar]

You said ἕλκουσιν cant mean drag in James 2:6, yet you quoted the above which says "a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off)" in regards to James 2:6.



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

touche' but why do you think that is drag? The translators did not,

 

[loDebar]

....because the Greek says πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.

No article used. Plural. Which means it has the range of meaning "every kind of" and "any entity out of a totality" both quotes from 2 separate lexicons. The latter being the BDAG

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

I agree , but that is not a different meaning and it is not as suggested here as groups
The plural of ALL, individually counted to include everyone.

Am I wrong?

 

[McCree79]

touche' but why do you think that is drag? The translators did not,

They are synonymous in certain contexts. Drawing and dragging and a fishing line to ones self is the samething.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[loDebar]

blame it ion KJV translators?

 

[loDebar]

but maybe since there is no fishing net from God to sinners and we have Jesus on the cross, lifted uo where all can see, Sin judged I will bet it is draw

 

[McCree79]

I agree , but that is not a different meaning and it is not as suggested here as groups
The plural of ALL, individually counted to include everyone.

Am I wrong?

Let's look at Matthew 12:15. Did Jesus heal "all" people in the sense of each and every person? Or did he heal "all" in the sense of he just healed the sick? Healthy people don't need healing...he healed a limited group, which was sick people.

Mark 2:12. Was Jesus in the sight of "all" people on the sense of everyone? No, it was limited to the people around him.

Ephesians 4:14, does Paul mean that there is someone who has been carried away by every single doctrine? No he means "all -types" in a general sense. That people are carried off by all different kinds of doctrine.

1 John 4:1. Does John mean dont believe "all", every single spirit? No context and grammar show he is limiting "all" to certain kinds of spirits.

I realize that not all English translations have "all" in English. But the Greek words all have the lexical form of πας.

Πας certain doesn't not mean "all" in the sense of every single one or thing in totality in all instances. One must look at context and grammar.



Both verse here limit "all" to a type of person.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[McCree79]

blame it ion KJV translators?

"Draw" isnt bad. It is within the realm of acceptable translation. I don't blame them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk