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Liberty! The Christian, wine and cigars?
- Thread starter Scott_Bushey
- Start date
Hi Molly,Originally posted by Molly:
I didn't say it wasn't wine,though. You may have misunderstood. I said it was fermented,but very weak compared to the harder drinks that can be purchased today....and it was because the water was not as clean,therefore being an appropriate drink in that situation.
If I remember correctly, the idea that "it was wine, but it wasn't really wine" is discussed, too.
There's no indication that it was anything other than wine, fermented to the point that it could cause intoxication.
Mike
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Molly,
Just for the record, the bible also talks of *strong drink*.
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
Just for the record, the bible also talks of *strong drink*.
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
Molly, wasn't the world of the Bible just as sinful? I mean, the Romans or the Greek, how about Babylon, a city devoted to materialism and sensual pleasure, or Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't think the sins you've listed pertains only to our world, and the times in which the Bible pertains to, they drank wine, but I believe only after Noah. I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.
Sue
Personally, I don't like wine and don't drink it, nor any alcohol, because I just don't like the taste. I like water and Dr. Pepper!
[ April 06, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: SuekieLyn ]
Hey,it is simply my opinion,I realize there is not a verse that says...do not drink,do not smoke,etc. I have gathered my thinking on this from biblical principles and the jest of what the bible teaches about living a holy life. Also,from a few respected commentaries...yes,John MacArthur's. I do believe the wine was different,but that is not the real issue here. I'm not going to die on a hill that is not word for word in the Bible,but I will say that it does hurt a christian's influence on an unbeliever's life. It can be a stumbling block to other weaker chritians...where do you draw the line on when someone is drunk....it definitely says do not be drunk with wine....so,there are too many questionable things with drinking.....when in doubt I choose the conservative choice,if I'm in error with my thinking,I haven't sinned by not doing it. I'd rather be wrong that way,than doing something that could really be detrimental,spritually, to someone else.
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Hi Molly,
You write:
"Hey,it is simply my opinion,I realize there is not a verse that says...do not drink,do not smoke,etc. I have gathered my thinking on this from biblical principles and the jest of what the bible teaches about living a holy life.
Scott responds:
Molly, what principles in the bible imply that smoking or drinking is *unholy*?
You add:
" Also,from a few respected commentaries.yes,John MacArthur's."
Scott states:
I used to attend Grace Community Church (which is the church Jahn MacArthur pastors)...They are wrong on this one. They have gone above and beyond what the scriptures state. This is commonly known as "legalism".
You add:
"I do believe the wine was different,but that is not the real issue here."
Scott asks:
Is this your opinion and if so, what are you basing that discovery on?
Next issue:
"but I will say that it does hurt a christian's influence on an unbeliever's life."
Scott asks:
Molly, is this an error in the way the world has interpreted how the believers life should be lived? It is our jobs as disciples to dilineate all the errors. We need to educate.
You add;
" It can be a stumbling block to other weaker christians."
Scott responds:
The proper application of this concept of Pauls is to (again) abstainfor the time and educate our brother or sister in the truths of the scripture.We are to not influence a brother or sister to step out of (here's the key component)what they believe is *truly* sin. If their mind says drinking liquor is sin (and of course at that moment we are unable to educate from the scriptures) then it is sin and for the time abstain.
The concept of stumbling ones brother or sister is many times today taught erroneously.
1 Cor 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1 Cor 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1 Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1 Cor 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1 Cor 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
Scott adds:
Notice the focus is on *knowledge*. If a brother or sister knows there is liberty, that is, that it is not sin to partake, then this person is not a applicable candidate for stumbling under this scriptural mandate. Many pastors teach that if we drink, smoke openly, and a brother who used to partake habitually (prior to his conversion) ses's us....it may cause this person to fall back into the sin of the world. IMO, thi is nothing more than *choice* for this person. The power of the Holy Spirit fills this believer. He must pray. How is it that this person goes to public restaurants weekly and sees people embibing and that never caused the person to begin drinking again? I agree with the mindset that no one wants to be the result of somone sinning, but in this case, I do not see the concept as applicable.
Molly states:
"where do you draw the line on when someone is drunk....it definitely says do not be drunk with wine."
Scott exhorts:
You are correct, drunkeness is a sin!
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
You write:
"Hey,it is simply my opinion,I realize there is not a verse that says...do not drink,do not smoke,etc. I have gathered my thinking on this from biblical principles and the jest of what the bible teaches about living a holy life.
Scott responds:
Molly, what principles in the bible imply that smoking or drinking is *unholy*?
You add:
" Also,from a few respected commentaries.yes,John MacArthur's."
Scott states:
I used to attend Grace Community Church (which is the church Jahn MacArthur pastors)...They are wrong on this one. They have gone above and beyond what the scriptures state. This is commonly known as "legalism".
You add:
"I do believe the wine was different,but that is not the real issue here."
Scott asks:
Is this your opinion and if so, what are you basing that discovery on?
Next issue:
"but I will say that it does hurt a christian's influence on an unbeliever's life."
Scott asks:
Molly, is this an error in the way the world has interpreted how the believers life should be lived? It is our jobs as disciples to dilineate all the errors. We need to educate.
You add;
" It can be a stumbling block to other weaker christians."
Scott responds:
The proper application of this concept of Pauls is to (again) abstainfor the time and educate our brother or sister in the truths of the scripture.We are to not influence a brother or sister to step out of (here's the key component)what they believe is *truly* sin. If their mind says drinking liquor is sin (and of course at that moment we are unable to educate from the scriptures) then it is sin and for the time abstain.
The concept of stumbling ones brother or sister is many times today taught erroneously.
1 Cor 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1 Cor 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1 Cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1 Cor 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1 Cor 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
Scott adds:
Notice the focus is on *knowledge*. If a brother or sister knows there is liberty, that is, that it is not sin to partake, then this person is not a applicable candidate for stumbling under this scriptural mandate. Many pastors teach that if we drink, smoke openly, and a brother who used to partake habitually (prior to his conversion) ses's us....it may cause this person to fall back into the sin of the world. IMO, thi is nothing more than *choice* for this person. The power of the Holy Spirit fills this believer. He must pray. How is it that this person goes to public restaurants weekly and sees people embibing and that never caused the person to begin drinking again? I agree with the mindset that no one wants to be the result of somone sinning, but in this case, I do not see the concept as applicable.
Molly states:
"where do you draw the line on when someone is drunk....it definitely says do not be drunk with wine."
Scott exhorts:
You are correct, drunkeness is a sin!
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
It simply sounds like you are trying to justify something you enjoy-that's fine if your conscience is okay with it-I happen to disagree with you and trust God's word,mainly Proverbs,when trying to undertsand what a holy life is to look like...drinking lines up with foolishness...that's the way it makes you act,so do not participate.But,there are other reasons,that I have mentioned in previous post. I have drank beofre and absolutely hated it and felt completely sorry for it.
WOW! That's neat that you were a memeber of Grace CC in California. We have heard John preach and he truly is a great teacher and expositer. he loves God's Word above all.
WOW! That's neat that you were a memeber of Grace CC in California. We have heard John preach and he truly is a great teacher and expositer. he loves God's Word above all.
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Molly,
Why would the God of creation command this rationale for the OT saint if in fact it was (as you say) unholy?
The OT saint sometimes had to travel far to get to the temple. God allowed for an exchange principle of sorts. So the man of God would not have to *tow* cattle, sheep and produce, he could sell it and then when he got to the temple, he could re-purchase some of the things he had sold....then make his offering to God. Some of the suggestions are below. God even allows for *strong drink*.
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Are you possibly confusing drunkeness with partaking?
P.S. I do love fine cigars and fine wines......historically, after I first got saved I too was taught this erroneous precept. Today, my wife and I partake once a week, a glass solely.
The cigars are a different story....I am praying about that. I am beginning to enjoy them much too much. I'm starting to wonder, who is smoking who???
In HIs graces,
Thankful for liberty,
Scott Bushey
[ April 07, 2002, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
Why would the God of creation command this rationale for the OT saint if in fact it was (as you say) unholy?
The OT saint sometimes had to travel far to get to the temple. God allowed for an exchange principle of sorts. So the man of God would not have to *tow* cattle, sheep and produce, he could sell it and then when he got to the temple, he could re-purchase some of the things he had sold....then make his offering to God. Some of the suggestions are below. God even allows for *strong drink*.
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Are you possibly confusing drunkeness with partaking?
P.S. I do love fine cigars and fine wines......historically, after I first got saved I too was taught this erroneous precept. Today, my wife and I partake once a week, a glass solely.
The cigars are a different story....I am praying about that. I am beginning to enjoy them much too much. I'm starting to wonder, who is smoking who???
In HIs graces,
Thankful for liberty,
Scott Bushey
[ April 07, 2002, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
"Wine is a mocker, and strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Porv. 20:1)
Any alcoholic fluid is toxic to the body -- even "a little wine for your stomach's sake". Heal your stomach but harm your liver and destroy brain cells. Doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.
This topic has been thoroughly and acrimoniously discussed before.
Any alcoholic fluid is toxic to the body -- even "a little wine for your stomach's sake". Heal your stomach but harm your liver and destroy brain cells. Doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.
This topic has been thoroughly and acrimoniously discussed before.
A.J.Armitage
New Member
My goodness.
A little wine for your stomach's sake is specifically endorsed by Scripture. Talking about how evil alcohol is while ignoring it is bad enough, but actually undertaking to refute Scripture? Of course it's a good trade off, or it wouldn't be recommended in the Bible. Especially back in the day, since alcohol kills some germs, making water mixed with alcohol safer than regular water. Moderate drinking is good for the heart. In fact, there are studies showing that moderate drinking has a positive effect of lifespan, which is pretty good evidence that's it's healthy.
Well, you can spin my comments any way you'd like, but the fact remains that alcohol is a toxin to the body.
While it is true that the Bible never specifically forbids drinking, it does illustrate instances where alcoholic drink factored heavily into sinful behaviour (Gen. 19:30-38; Isa. 5:11, 22; 28:7), it expressly condemns drunkenness (Ga. 5:21), and it clearly implies that alcohol is a hindrance in the perfection of holiness in one's life (Lev. 10:9; Nu. 6;2,3; Lu. 1:15).
While it is true that the Bible never specifically forbids drinking, it does illustrate instances where alcoholic drink factored heavily into sinful behaviour (Gen. 19:30-38; Isa. 5:11, 22; 28:7), it expressly condemns drunkenness (Ga. 5:21), and it clearly implies that alcohol is a hindrance in the perfection of holiness in one's life (Lev. 10:9; Nu. 6;2,3; Lu. 1:15).
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Aiki,
With all due respect.........
I am sorry, but you are de-harmonizing truth. You cannot support this claim scripturally or medically. It is unfounded. The fact that you state that alcohol is a *toxin* is not true at all. The New England Journal of Medicine has proven studies that show alcohol in low volumes is beneficial to the human body. Scripture calls it also a blessng from God. Your implication that consumption is is an *unholy* act is preposterous when contrasted to the life of Christ.
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
[ April 08, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
With all due respect.........
I am sorry, but you are de-harmonizing truth. You cannot support this claim scripturally or medically. It is unfounded. The fact that you state that alcohol is a *toxin* is not true at all. The New England Journal of Medicine has proven studies that show alcohol in low volumes is beneficial to the human body. Scripture calls it also a blessng from God. Your implication that consumption is is an *unholy* act is preposterous when contrasted to the life of Christ.
In HIM,
Scott Bushey
[ April 08, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
Scott, Unfortunately we cannot educate the whole world. There are many people who feel that drinking in any amount is sin. Most of those are lost and even if they drink they see it as an unChristian failing in Christians. These we would seek to educate require gospel presentation not libritarian education. The bible is clear that those who would serve as deacon not be given to drink and those who seek to be a pastor should abstain.
1.This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3. Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4. One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5. (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6. Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1 Timothy 3:3-8
If we truly strive to be Christ like we would avoid even the appearence of evil. Sounds rabid but what is a little lost enjoyment here on earth when literally buying a bottle of wine might turn an unknown person fataly away from Christ. We will know one day how much of that happened. for me I gave up the smoking, dipping and drinking.
B.
1.This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3. Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4. One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5. (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6. Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1 Timothy 3:3-8
If we truly strive to be Christ like we would avoid even the appearence of evil. Sounds rabid but what is a little lost enjoyment here on earth when literally buying a bottle of wine might turn an unknown person fataly away from Christ. We will know one day how much of that happened. for me I gave up the smoking, dipping and drinking.
B.
Scott_Bushey
<img src=/scott.jpg>
Hey Brian,
Thanks for your response.
You write:
"If we truly strive to be Christ like we would avoid even the appearence of evil."
Scott responds:
How can we contrast your statement to our supreme example, that being our savior. His comments to the Pharisees disclose the rightful truth. How about Paul exhorting Tim to *take some wine for your stomachs sake*? The Lords supper utilized wine? I ask, is partaking of wine evil or has society taken something of a blessing and given it to the dogs?
You then write:
"Sounds rabid but what is a little lost enjoyment here on earth when literally buying a bottle of wine might turn an unknown person fataly away from Christ. for me I gave up the smoking, dipping and drinking."
Scott asks:
"Can anything truly dismantle the power of God? Can the elect truly perish or fall away? I do not think so. I will not corrupt the power of God unto salvation.
As for your deleting of these items in your life, in no way will I imply it is good or bad; it is your choice. However, do you feel that this brings you any closer to the Lord than the next man who happens to partake.
In HIM,
Sola Fide,
Scott
Thanks for your response.
You write:
"If we truly strive to be Christ like we would avoid even the appearence of evil."
Scott responds:
How can we contrast your statement to our supreme example, that being our savior. His comments to the Pharisees disclose the rightful truth. How about Paul exhorting Tim to *take some wine for your stomachs sake*? The Lords supper utilized wine? I ask, is partaking of wine evil or has society taken something of a blessing and given it to the dogs?
You then write:
"Sounds rabid but what is a little lost enjoyment here on earth when literally buying a bottle of wine might turn an unknown person fataly away from Christ. for me I gave up the smoking, dipping and drinking."
Scott asks:
"Can anything truly dismantle the power of God? Can the elect truly perish or fall away? I do not think so. I will not corrupt the power of God unto salvation.
As for your deleting of these items in your life, in no way will I imply it is good or bad; it is your choice. However, do you feel that this brings you any closer to the Lord than the next man who happens to partake.
In HIM,
Sola Fide,
Scott
Rev. Joshua
<img src=/cjv.jpg>
Christ did exactly the opposite. It was one of the primary charges against him that he did not behave in a matter befitting a pious teacher.
Joshua
A.J.Armitage
New Member
A toxin to the body that increases lifespan?
Which doesn't combine to equal a condemnation of drinking, especially since Jesus himself drank.
God's book, the Bible, does not forbid alcohol. Satan's book, the Koran, does. That's good enough for me.
Bartimaeus
New Member
Howdy Y'all,
Ever seen these before?
"Woe to him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! Thou art filled with shame for glory, drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory."
Hab 2:15-16
Isn't yeast and leaven the same thing? Leaven is always a "type" of sin. Would passover wine be leavened?
Drink up Brothers! Rationalize, Entertain your best desires, but remember Payday, Someday.
[ April 09, 2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Bartimaeus ]
Ever seen these before?
"Woe to him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! Thou art filled with shame for glory, drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory."
Hab 2:15-16
Isn't yeast and leaven the same thing? Leaven is always a "type" of sin. Would passover wine be leavened?
Drink up Brothers! Rationalize, Entertain your best desires, but remember Payday, Someday.
[ April 09, 2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Bartimaeus ]