Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Do you believe the trauma experienced by many men in war has caused mental disorders for them?
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
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Life experiences and mental disorders?
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
- Start date
I once heard of a man who was born into an obviously disfunctional family with several jealous and abusive siblings. His father refused to riegn them in and there was no discipline. He then proceeded to attempt to "spoil" this sibling by showering him with gifts in an unequal fashion. His siblings, becoming jealous, and after considering killing him, faked his death and sold him to a bunch of vagabond slavers. God only knows what atrocities happenned to him while in their "care". He was hence sold into slavery in a foriegn land, with a foriegn toungue. Unregarded, unloved, and completely deserted. After rising to some station, he was betrayed by one he trusted after acting in an honorable fashion and thrown in prison to rot. He was betrayed again in prison by those he befriended. FINALLY, after many years, he was delivered of his trials and rose to some station in life...BUT he never once mistreated anyone. He NEVER took revenge, with plenty of opportunity, but instead showed mercy at every turn to his former oppressors. His heart fomented love rather than hate. Never once did he even question his circumstance, or display any bitterness or bad attitude as a result. HMMMMM...just food for thought.
I have to agree with you JB, everyone gets dealt cards, some good, some bad...it is MY RESPONSIBILITY how I play them (excuse the metaphor).
I have to agree with you JB, everyone gets dealt cards, some good, some bad...it is MY RESPONSIBILITY how I play them (excuse the metaphor).
Well you have to try the case and see what the evidence says. But you know Josep, no state allows executions for anything less than first degree murder. The thing that set first degree murder apart from second degree or manslaughter is preconception. You had to plan it. If you walk into a house and see a man on your wife and you kill him on the spot, that is not preconceived, and no state will execute. In the case of mental patients I would ask do you think they always have the ability to preconcieve the murder. Or if they are not even in a real world, would you think they can really preconcieve the act? In other words if someone, like me tried to grab the young girls arm to get her off the street and she pulled a knife an killed me because she was delusional and saw me as a threat, would that even qualify under our legal definition of first degree murder?
"No and Yes."-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are going to make this hard huh.
Yeah some soldiers get mental from trauma of war, but most do not. You just can't assume it about anyone even if they had a truamatic childhood or commited a horrific act.
You are going to make this hard huh.
Yeah some soldiers get mental from trauma of war, but most do not. You just can't assume it about anyone even if they had a truamatic childhood or commited a horrific act.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
The difference between Joseph and the person in this story is as follows:
Joseph lived a fairly good life until he was sold into slavery later in life probably in his teen years). This person was severely abused both physically and sexually by the time he was 10 and was rejected by his only living parent at birth, and never shown much love at all.
Joseph lived a fairly good life until he was sold into slavery later in life probably in his teen years). This person was severely abused both physically and sexually by the time he was 10 and was rejected by his only living parent at birth, and never shown much love at all.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I don't want you to know who it is. I want you to make an objective decision about this person detatched from the emotions of knowing who it is.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
It is known that children who are neglected commonly grow up with emotional problems. It is not that they are angry at being neglected (although they may be angry people) it is that during their brain development they didn't receive proper care and have become incapable of forming normal attachments to other people. They may become excessively clingy, being quite affectionate to people they don't even know, or they may be withdrawn and hostile. Next, permissiveness alternating with abuse is an excellent way to produce a sociopath. These people have an abnormal lack of fear of the consequences of their actions. They require extreme situations to experience an emotional thrill, so often become involved in dangerous sports, crime, or serial homicide. Their attachment process was so damaged that they don't think of other people as individuals and have no empathy. They tend to be habitual liars. Most sociopaths are just garden-variety jerks, I'm not sure what turns some to murder.
So yes, I would expect that a child from this situation would be emotionally disturbed. The later abuse isn't as much of an issue--I'm sure it didn't help, but if he had been raised in a loving family for the first three years I don't think the outcome would have been so bad. Do I think that he should be executed? Yes, I think so. Sociopaths understand that society views their crimes as wrong and that they will be punished if they are caught--they just don't care.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Exactly! They know right from wrong, but simply don't care. This is what divides comman criminals and evern sociopaths from mentally ill people. For there to be an execution, there must be a knowledge of right and wrong.
Is it still fair for me to offer more if I think I know who it is?
If it IS who I think, than you are quite wise to keep his identity secret, because I know my answer would immediately become prejudiced by that knowledge.
Trying to be objective though, and looking at what everyone else said, maybe he does need some individual evaluation. Perhaps he was always placated and no one ever really dared to tell him that he was wrong. I most certainly would never want to set him free again, because he would not stop. I don't think he can be rehabilitated.
But perhaps prison in another country?
If it IS who I think, than you are quite wise to keep his identity secret, because I know my answer would immediately become prejudiced by that knowledge.
Trying to be objective though, and looking at what everyone else said, maybe he does need some individual evaluation. Perhaps he was always placated and no one ever really dared to tell him that he was wrong. I most certainly would never want to set him free again, because he would not stop. I don't think he can be rehabilitated.
But perhaps prison in another country?
T
TexasSky
Guest
Joseph,
I've seen the before and after of mental illness personally due to a car accident that changed my husband from a loving man of God to a total stranger, from a gentle man to a man who threatened homicide and suicide on a regular basis.
So - yes - I think mental illness can change people totally.
All of that said - some people have absolutely no hope of recovery from mental illness, and certain laws in our society are made to protect society. (And I don't think you are talking about Manson). (I do think I know who you are talking about though.)
Charles Manson will never be sane. He is a danger to all of society as long as he lives. He proved that when people who followed him continued to commit crimes in his name after he was locked up. I think Manson is either a demon pretending to be a man, or so possessed that he should be named Legion JR. I don't think Manson should be allowed to continue living.
On the other hand - there are people who committed horrendous crimes during altered mental states (people suffering from P.T.S.D. flashing back, not realizing who they were killing, people who were literally demon possessed who later came to Christ whose entire life shows dramatic change since Christ entered it) who should be allowed to live.
Each individual has to be judged individually, and I think the judgement should be based on protecting society and with the chances of healing being weighed against the risk to society if they escape.
I've seen the before and after of mental illness personally due to a car accident that changed my husband from a loving man of God to a total stranger, from a gentle man to a man who threatened homicide and suicide on a regular basis.
So - yes - I think mental illness can change people totally.
All of that said - some people have absolutely no hope of recovery from mental illness, and certain laws in our society are made to protect society. (And I don't think you are talking about Manson). (I do think I know who you are talking about though.)
Charles Manson will never be sane. He is a danger to all of society as long as he lives. He proved that when people who followed him continued to commit crimes in his name after he was locked up. I think Manson is either a demon pretending to be a man, or so possessed that he should be named Legion JR. I don't think Manson should be allowed to continue living.
On the other hand - there are people who committed horrendous crimes during altered mental states (people suffering from P.T.S.D. flashing back, not realizing who they were killing, people who were literally demon possessed who later came to Christ whose entire life shows dramatic change since Christ entered it) who should be allowed to live.
Each individual has to be judged individually, and I think the judgement should be based on protecting society and with the chances of healing being weighed against the risk to society if they escape.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
Mental illness never absolves anyone of guilt. But it is a consideration for sentencing, especially if treatable.
One issue in this discussion is what qualifies as mental illness. Having different values and desires from the rest of society is not the only criteria.
One issue in this discussion is what qualifies as mental illness. Having different values and desires from the rest of society is not the only criteria.
"Exactly! They know right from wrong, but simply don't care. This is what divides comman criminals and evern sociopaths from mentally ill people. For there to be an execution, there must be a knowledge of right and wrong."---------------------------------------------------------------
That is right, menageriekeeper, a sociopath knows what he is doing and can decide not to do it. A dilusional person, is unaware of their actons.
So, Joseph, I ask again - is there any info that suggest this person was dilusional and unaware of the reality of their actions?
It seems Joseph, you have given us an example that will justify your posisition on execution, but which is not really repersentitive of the Andrea Yeates situation. And therefor not useful to draw conclusions about her case.
That is right, menageriekeeper, a sociopath knows what he is doing and can decide not to do it. A dilusional person, is unaware of their actons.
So, Joseph, I ask again - is there any info that suggest this person was dilusional and unaware of the reality of their actions?
It seems Joseph, you have given us an example that will justify your posisition on execution, but which is not really repersentitive of the Andrea Yeates situation. And therefor not useful to draw conclusions about her case.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Can we get specific?
Should Manson be set-free, given life or given death?
Should Ted Bundy have been set free, given life or given death?
Andrea Yates?
Diane Small?
John Hinkley?
Saddam Hussain?
John Wayne Gacey?
Should Manson be set-free, given life or given death?
Should Ted Bundy have been set free, given life or given death?
Andrea Yates?
Diane Small?
John Hinkley?
Saddam Hussain?
John Wayne Gacey?
Seth&Mattsmom
New Member
Abusive childhoods and lack of positive father-figures has been cited to be one of the common characteristics of serial-killers. I believe that you can be set up to fail as a child.
Evil people can be taught to love. Think of Corrie ten Boom and how she forgave her Nazi jailers....who became a Christian.
Putting someone to death just releases them from burdening society. It teaches them no lesson because they are dead.
Evil people can be taught to love. Think of Corrie ten Boom and how she forgave her Nazi jailers....who became a Christian.
Putting someone to death just releases them from burdening society. It teaches them no lesson because they are dead.
T
TexasSky
Guest
You said: For there to be an execution, there must be a knowledge of right and wrong.
Do you realize that by definition sociopaths don't know right from wrong?
To a sociopath, a man like Ted Bundy, "right" is anything that brings them joy. "Wrong" is anything that prevents them from doing what brings them pleasure.
Bundy did not believe it was wrong to kill.
He did believe it was against the law to kill.
He also thought he was above the law.
Do you realize that by definition sociopaths don't know right from wrong?
To a sociopath, a man like Ted Bundy, "right" is anything that brings them joy. "Wrong" is anything that prevents them from doing what brings them pleasure.
Bundy did not believe it was wrong to kill.
He did believe it was against the law to kill.
He also thought he was above the law.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
But Bundy was still capable of making the decision to kill or not to kill. He wasn't hallucinating and I don't believe he claimed to hear voices. What his egotistical belief that he was above the law didn't make it so and he knew it. If he had really not known right from wrong, he would have stood over the bodies and gloated, not tried to hide his crimes.
Now for your list:
Manson: I'm not sure as I was rather young when he comitted his crimes.(In other words I don't knew enough about his mental state)
Bundy is where he belongs: dead
Yates: probably not, as I believe she was truely over the edge and was incapable of reasoning.
Diane Small: ? I'll have to look her up
Hussien: Here again, I'm not real sure. What he did as leader of his own country, so long as it wasn't against thier laws(Iraq's) at the time, probably shouldn't be brought as criminal charges now. Remember the US supported him though part of his reign. If they can prove that what he did was done with disregaurd for the then law and that he directly ordered or committed murder for murder's sake....hang him high!
Oops, missed Hinkley. He's where he needs to be also. Nutty as a fruitcake. However I don't believe he should be allowed time out of his mental hospital. We shouldn't take the chance that he could snap again.
Gacy: Again he was a bit before my time. But if he was able to premeditate his murders and I believe he was, he is also where he belongs--dead.
Now for your list:
Manson: I'm not sure as I was rather young when he comitted his crimes.(In other words I don't knew enough about his mental state)
Bundy is where he belongs: dead
Yates: probably not, as I believe she was truely over the edge and was incapable of reasoning.
Diane Small: ? I'll have to look her up
Hussien: Here again, I'm not real sure. What he did as leader of his own country, so long as it wasn't against thier laws(Iraq's) at the time, probably shouldn't be brought as criminal charges now. Remember the US supported him though part of his reign. If they can prove that what he did was done with disregaurd for the then law and that he directly ordered or committed murder for murder's sake....hang him high!
Oops, missed Hinkley. He's where he needs to be also. Nutty as a fruitcake. However I don't believe he should be allowed time out of his mental hospital. We shouldn't take the chance that he could snap again.
Gacy: Again he was a bit before my time. But if he was able to premeditate his murders and I believe he was, he is also where he belongs--dead.
Bundy did understand right and worng, he just had no moral conviction to follow it. He is fully aware of what he did. In fact the need for deception and tricery, and the need to avoid justice prove that he was aware of the implications of what he did. In fact he blames it on pronagraphy, why would he blame anything if he did not even know it was worng?.