Limited Spiritual Ability of the Fallen

[Van]

The Pattern is as Jesus told us, as he sought the Apostles out, they did not seek him...

Y1 posts obvious falsehoods non-stop. Some of the Apostles, before being chosen were looking for the Messiah, thus seeking God. See John 1:35-42

 

[Alan Gross]

“Tell me how man is not totally depraved, and totally unable to believe prior to regeneration in light of these passages: Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14, Eph. 2:1; and Col. 1:13. How would you reconcile the Greek work "nekros" in describing the sinners spiritual condition?”

This is a typical off the shelf deflection of truth posited over and over by various Calvinist accolades.

What does “totally depraved” mean according to Calvinism. It means we are in a spiritually dead condition, with dead meaning having no ability to discern "spiritual milk. Only after being made alive are we enabled to understand and believe the gospel. Does scripture anywhere ever say such a thing? No.

Matthew 23:13 has unregenerate men entering heaven, yet they are blocked by false teachings from false teachers. How could a “totally depraved” person using the Calvinist definition of the term be entering heaven without seeking the God who abides in that spiritual realm of heaven?

Once a person accepts that to be “spiritually dead” simply means to be separated from God and unable to do anything to obtain union with God, then the action to seek God becomes possible. No need to pretend the folks that receive the gospel (Matthew 13) with joy were “partially regenerated” just enough so they could do what scripture says they did, but not enough for God to credit their faith as righteousness. Again, this whole line of argument is from silence, When a person is put spiritually in Christ, then they are made alive together with Christ. So the only biblically based definition of being spiritually dead is to be outside of Christ, i.e. in Adam, or in the realm of darkness. The extra meaning (unable to seek God and trust in Christ) added by some is no where to be found in scripture. On the contrary, verse after verse tells us of folks seeking God, some through works but others through faith, such as Matthew 6:33, Luke 13:24, Acts 17:27, Hebrews 11:6, and of course Matthew 23:13.

Now a mind set of the flesh is not set on spiritual things. But a mind set on spiritual things is not set on the flesh. So the issue is not that a mind set on the flesh is unable to please God, the issue is whether an unregenerate, spiritually dead, separated from God person can set their minds on some spiritual things and seek God. Some say no, but Matthew 23:13 says yes. The mistaken view is that men of flesh, i.e. unsaved, unregenerate, and spiritually dead, are unable to set their minds on some spiritual things, some of the time, but like those in Matthew 23:13 some "men of flesh" do seek God.

Next scripture teaches that men in the flesh are men of flesh with their minds set on the flesh. In this condition men in the flesh cannot please God. So all this says is you will not seek God through faith if your mind is set on the flesh. It does not teach men of flesh cannot at any time set their minds on some spiritual things like the men of Matthew 23:13.

1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural man, which refers to a spiritually dead unregenerate man of flesh, does not accept the things of the Spirit of God. Here some mistakenly insert “all” into the text, reading it to say, does not accept all the things of the Spirit of God. The alternate reading, does not accept some of the things of the Spirit of God is seen as adding to the text, whereas “all” is implied by the text. This of course is sheer fiction.

Continuing in the passage, verses 15 and 16, we see that born again believers have the mind of Christ and are able to appraise all spiritual things. Then in verse 3:1, we see Paul had to speak to the new and immature Christians as if they were men of flesh or babes in Christ. They were not able yet to receive spiritual meat, but were able to receive the milk of the gospel. Thus the very passage cited by some to demonstrate men of flesh are unable to receive the milk of the gospel actually demonstrates they are able. Otherwise Paul would not have spoken using spiritual milk as to "men of flesh."

Ephesians 2:1 simply says we are dead in our sins before we are made alive together with Christ. The unstated assertion is to say being dead we are unable to seek God or receive the gospel. However, that definitional argument, defining “spiritually dead” to mean unable to seek God and trust in Christ, is not found in scripture. So the verse is non-germane, yet is cited as if it carried with it the bogus definition of being spiritually dead. This is simply doubling down of the assumption that men of flesh are unable to receive the milk of the gospel, now refuted by two separate passages, Matthew 23:13 and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

Colossians 1:13 is yet another non-germane verse which teaches it is God alone who transfers us from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son. That is simply saying we do not save ourselves by trusting fully in Christ. It is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness, or not because He alone knows what is hidden in our hearts, and then if He credits our worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness, then He puts us in Christ.

Bottom line, once again the usual support for the mistaken view of some has been fully refuted by many scriptures, contextually considered.

What does “totally depraved” mean according to Calvinism. It means we are in a spiritually dead condition, with dead meaning having no ability to discern "spiritual milk. Only after being made alive are we enabled to understand and believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural man, which refers to a spiritually dead unregenerate man of flesh, does not accept the things of the Spirit of God.

Ephesians 2:1 simply says we are dead in our sins before we are made alive together with Christ.

God alone who transfers us from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His Beloved Son.

 

[Alan Gross]

The issue is not seeking God without first experiencing God's revelation to people. The issue is the bogus claim no one ever seeks after God. That bogus claim is obviously false. Scripture has dozens of examples of people seeking God, some through works, and some through faith.

Romans 1:19 says the fallen are without excuse, thus they have sufficient spiritual ability to discern attributes of God from what He has made.

I have provided more than a dozen separate verses teaching people seek God. And many more can be cited.

What makes Matthew 23:13 so informative, is the bogus claim they had been enabled by irresistible grace, does not work because although they were in the process of entering, they were prevented from going into the Kingdom, thus not compelled by irresistible grace.

I do not recall you saying fallen people do or do not have limited spiritual ability.

Wrong: Romans 1:19 says the fallen are without excuse, thus they have sufficient spiritual ability to discern attributes of God from what He has made.

they have sufficient ability BUT NO SPIRITUAL ABILITY to discern attributes of God from what He has made.

Matthew 23:13 DOES NOT have unregenerate men entering heaven

 

[Alan Gross]

Scripture says they were "entering" the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:13 (NASB)
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.​

1) I said "entering" not entered.
2) Humans cannot change their spiritual position, if a person is outside of Christ, "in Adam" or "in the realm of darkness" they can do nothing to change their spiritual location.
3) To be "entering" therefore refers to being in the process of coming to faith. It follows that false teachers sometimes derail this process.

Matthew 23:13 is not about, "Faith", or "Salvation", or 'Spiritual Position, as you know, it concerns discouragement and prevention, physically, from going where they might Hear The Gospel, be Granted Repentance and Faith in The New Birth, then, Enter the Real Kingdom of Heaven, in HEAVEN.

Being EXPOSED to THE GOSPEL KINGDOM, or 'the kingdom of heaven' in this verse is making no reference to 'Heaven'.

 

[atpollard]

More deflection, Romans 3:11 does not say no one ever seeks God,

Yes it does.

but the bobus doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability does make that false claim.

No it doesn’t.

No point explaining it again, since you didn’t listen the first time.

 

[atpollard]

On and on, they sidestep the issue. The people that were entering the kingdom in Matthew 23:13 were not the Pharisees!!!!

We were discussing the Eunuch. There is nothing about Phillip and the Eunuch in Matthew 23:13, so your charge that I am sidestepping the issue is nonsense. The eunuch was attempting to learn about God, but was UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND ... just like Scripture says all natural men are unable to understand. Just like the Pharisees (as highly educated and well studied natural men) could not understand.

The propensity of the Pharisees to place stumbling blocks to those wanting to seek God by placing additional burdens they added to the Law on men, while they made no effort to event attempt to carry those burdens because they claimed special loopholes has no bearing on the ability of any “natural man” to understand the spiritual matters of God without a special gift of GRACE from God that empowers men to understand. I am not sidestepping the issue, rather the issue is irrelevant.

 

[atpollard]

but remember Paul spoke using spiritual milk as to men of flesh

I remember that Paul spoke to “brothers” (the saved) and not to “natural men” (the unsaved) when teaching with “spiritual milk”. That is probably because Paul knew that “natural men” cannot understand things of the spirit (after all, Paul was the one that told us that truth).

 

[atpollard]

This from those that claim no one ever seeks after God.

Do you mean “the Apostle Paul” and “God”?
They are the ones that make that claim.

[Romans 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

[Psalms 14:2-3 NASB] 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

 

[atpollard]

This is the second time you have pretended to be unable to grasp the difference between "saved" and salvation. This is all they have folks, ignore, deflect and pretend personal incredulity. The concept of salvation is presented by the text, but the word does not appear so all this grammar is willful deflection.

You have completely ignored the actual verse and jumped straight to your personal redefining summary of what God REALLY MEANT rather than wasting any time on what He actually said. Superlative eisigegis.

 

[atpollard]

1 Corinthians 3:1.
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ

Paul spoke using spiritual milk as to men of flesh proving once again, and for the umpteenth time men of flesh can understand spiritual milk.

Since that verse says NOTHING about “spiritual milk”, you have not proven anything except an ability to match random scripture verses with random conclusions.

 

[Van]

[QUOTE="Alan Gross, post: 2640741, member: 14358" Only after being made alive are we enabled to understand and believe the gospel.[/quote] False, verse after verse says the fallen are able to discern some spiritual things, such as the attributes of God. Romans 1:19

1 Corinthians 2:14 says the natural man, which refers to a spiritually dead unregenerate man of flesh, does not accept the things of the Spirit of God.

The things of the Spirit refers to spiritual solid food, not spiritual milk, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

 

[Van]

Wrong: Romans 1:19 says the fallen are without excuse, thus they have sufficient spiritual ability to discern attributes of God from what He has made.
they have sufficient ability BUT NO SPIRITUAL ABILITY to discern attributes of God from what He has made.
Matthew 23:13 DOES NOT have unregenerate men entering heaven

Irrational nonsense.

 

[Van]

Matthew 23:13 is not about, "Faith", or "Salvation", or 'Spiritual Position, as you know, it concerns discouragement and prevention, physically, from going where they might Hear The Gospel, be Granted Repentance and Faith in The New Birth, then, Enter the Real Kingdom of Heaven, in HEAVEN.

Being EXPOSED to THE GOSPEL KINGDOM, or 'the kingdom of heaven' in this verse is making no reference to 'Heaven'.

Yet another taint so post, but the fallen are entering the kingdom of heaven, so they have some spiritual ability.
Note denier after denier is simply repeating the same denial to add to the length of the thread.

 

[Van]

Yes it does

Here no one seeks after God is rewritten to say no one ever seeks God, despite more than a dozen verses, like Matthew 23:13 which describe people seeking God.

 

[Van]

We were discussing the Eunuch. There is nothing about Phillip and the Eunuch in Matthew 23:13, so your charge that I am sidestepping the issue is nonsense. The eunuch was attempting to learn about God, but was UNABLE TO UNDERSTAND ... just like Scripture says all natural men are unable to understand. Just like the Pharisees (as highly educated and well studied natural men) could not understand.

The propensity of the Pharisees to place stumbling blocks to those wanting to seek God by placing additional burdens they added to the Law on men, while they made no effort to event attempt to carry those burdens because they claimed special loopholes has no bearing on the ability of any “natural man” to understand the spiritual matters of God without a special gift of GRACE from God that empowers men to understand. I am not sidestepping the issue, rather the issue is irrelevant.

On and on, Atpollard said Pharisees. Now denies it. What a waste. Utter nonsense is being posted to lengthen the thread.

 

[Alan Gross]

[QUOTE="Alan Gross, post: 2640741, member: 14358" Only after being made alive are we enabled to understand and believe the gospel.

False, verse after verse says the fallen are able to discern some spiritual things, such as the attributes of God. Romans 1:19


The things of the Spirit refers to spiritual solid food, not spiritual milk, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3[/QUOTE]

the lost can not grasp either. nothing of God, Who is Spirit,
unless He Touches them, first.

 

[Van]

I remember that Paul spoke to “brothers” (the saved) and not to “natural men” (the unsaved) when teaching with “spiritual milk”. That is probably because Paul knew that “natural men” cannot understand things of the spirit (after all, Paul was the one that told us that truth).

Yet another straight up deletion of "as to men of flesh" from 1 Corinthians 3:1. They are just posting nonsense to lengthen the thread.

 

[Van]

Do you mean “the Apostle Paul” and “God”?
They are the ones that make that claim SNIP

Yet another claim scripture says what it does not say. Note how more than a dozen verses showing people seeking God are said not to mean what they say.

 

[Van]

1 Corinthians 3:1.
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ
Since that verse says NOTHING about “spiritual milk”, you have not proven anything except an ability to match random scripture verses with random conclusions.

Yet another straight up denial of scripture. These posters are wasting this thread with nonsensical posts, one after another.

 

[Alan Gross]

Yet another taint so post, but the fallen are entering the kingdom of heaven, so they have some spiritual ability.
Note denier after denier is simply repeating the same denial to add to the length of the thread.

turn that around, where it can do some good.

You are making, 'the kingdom of heaven', mean, 'Heaven', and you don't consider that it could have more expressive a meaning than that, by indicating, "The Entire Gospel Administration of The One and Only, True, and Living God's Eternal Covenant of Salvation, by Grace" ( and not some future, or Present Heaven, Where God Lives.
He Can let you see another meaning if HE Wants. He Runs Heaven and Wrote The Bible...)