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Line Between Heresy and Difference of Opinion

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I already told you that I have a 2,000 book library, another 1,000 books on my computer, and then on the internet access to an unlimited number of materials. Why on earth would I need dusty old catechisms on my shelf when I have access to much better materials than those for personal study. You are not making any sense at all.

DHK,
Do the people you instruct have a2,000 book library and a 1000 books on their computer. Even if they do....why would you speak out against any tool that helps people be equipped with a solid biblical knowledge and worldview that we are to express to the unsaved we interact with?

This makes no sense to me...that is in part why we disagree
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
DHK,
Do the people you instruct have a2,000 book library and a 1000 books on their computer. Even if they do....why would you speak out against any tool that helps people be equipped with a solid biblical knowledge and worldview that we are to express to the unsaved we interact with?

This makes no sense to me...that is in part why we disagree
You are using arguments that are similar in nature to the RCC.
They can't seem to get past the ECF saying that they are the best resource to use simply because they were written earlier. But they are wrong. The writings of the ECF are confused, contain much of the errors that entered in during those early years of the history of the church.
We have much better resources now.

In the same way we have much better resources available to us than the confessions and Catechisms that you keep referring to. There is nothing preventing me in writing a better one than the one that you keep referring to. And you keep referring to a fallible document. There is bound to be error in there.
I know of a church in which every person was required to read the constitution and especially the statement of faith, and agree with it as a condition of membership. And that is quite reasonable.
The pastor had only been there for five years. The constitution was revised but the statement of faith could not be changed (according to the constitution), and had been in place for over 30 years. It was only last year when someone was carefully examining the statement of faith that they did indeed find out that the statement of faith had been changed in two different places, and deliberately so. No one had caught it for those intervening four years.
Why was it changed? Whose fault was it? Why were people agreeing to something that wasn't meant to be? These are serious questions.

A Catechism or a Confession is very similar to a statement of faith. It can be altered, changed, sometimes without someone realizing it. Then it is in error. It is a fallible document written by fallible men. It is of no great importance.
Paul emphasized the importance of preaching, the importance of the Word of God, not confessions and catechisms. They aren't even Biblical or found in the Bible. There is no Biblical precedent for them.
 

saturneptune

New Member
DHK,
Do the people you instruct have a2,000 book library and a 1000 books on their computer. Even if they do....why would you speak out against any tool that helps people be equipped with a solid biblical knowledge and worldview that we are to express to the unsaved we interact with?

This makes no sense to me...that is in part why we disagree
No, the reason you disagree is because he posts sound doctrine, you do not.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DHK

In the same way we have much better resources available to us than the confessions and Catechisms that you keep referring to.
I have not anyone offer any.

There is nothing preventing me in writing a better one than the one that you keep referring to.
I am certain you cannot.You have not seen it to even make such a statement. Take any chapter of the 1689 confession,,,and show how you would improve it.
I know of a church in which every person was required to read the constitution and especially the statement of faith, and agree with it as a condition of membership. And that is quite reasonable.

ARBCAchurches use the 1689 as their statement of faith
A
Catechism or a Confession is very similar to a statement of faith. It can be altered, changed, sometimes without someone realizing it.

The 1689 is the same...since 1689.
Paul emphasized the importance of preaching, the importance of the Word of God, not confessions and catechisms. They aren't even Biblical or found in the Bible. There is no Biblical precedent for them.
Well Lets see DHK..you say it is not biblical....
The English word “catechism” is derived from the Gk. verb katēchēo, “to
resound, teach orally, instruct by mouth.” This term originally had the idea of
“speaking down or from above” i.e., from actors on an elevated stage. It is a
compound of the preposition kata, “down, throughout, thoroughly” and the
verb ēchēo, “to sound,” the source of our English word, “echo.” There seems
to be in this etymology the idea of a responsive answer. Catechizing has the
connotation of thorough or repeated oral instruction, and is only one of
several related terms for instruction or teaching found in Scripture. The term
itself occurs eight times in the New Testament (twice as “informed” in Acts
21:21, 24, referring to word–of–mouth information):
“That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
hast been catechized.” Luke 1:4.
18
“This man had been constantly catechized in the way of the Lord;
and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the
things of the Lord...” Acts 18:25.
“And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more
excellent, being constantly catechized out of the law...” Romans
2:18.
“Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might catechize others also, than
ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” 1 Cor. 14:19.
“Let him who is being catechized in the word communicate unto him
who catechizes in all good things.” Gal. 6:6.


You said it was not found in scripture ,so evidently you would not be able to write a better one if you do not even know it is indeed biblical.
 
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saturneptune

New Member
You said it was not found in scripture ,so evidently you would not be able to write a better one if you do not even know it is indeed biblical.
This thread is about the difference between heresy and opinion. It is not a sounding board for your inability to forget the RCC. If you cannot attempt to stay on the subject of the thread I started, stay out.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This thread is about the difference between heresy and opinion. It is not a sounding board for your inability to forget the RCC. If you cannot attempt to stay on the subject of the thread I started, stay out.

Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
When I See Smoke Coming From My PC Screen....

...I immediately turn on the BB Forum, and I see Iconoclast in the midst of the hot spots causing the smoke.

I had my run with Icon a week or so ago, so I'm thankful to God that there are others on the BB to keep him entertained and challenged. :thumbs:
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
...I immediately turn on the BB Forum, and I see Iconoclast in the midst of the hot spots causing the smoke.

I had my run with Icon a week or so ago, so I'm thankful to God that there are others on the BB to keep him entertained and challenged. :thumbs:

It is like a tag team match dude:thumbs::thumbs:
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
DHK
I have not anyone offer any.
Then you need to go and buy some good books.
I am certain you cannot.You have not seen it to even make such a statement. Take any chapter of the 1689 confession,,,and show how you would improve it.
I have seen it. It took me five seconds to search it and skim through parts of it on the internet. Yes, I could write something just as good if not better. Why? Because I don't agree with all of it, for one reason. And secondly, it is simply systematic theology, which I have been teaching for some time anyway. Where have you been Icon, if you don't know the basics of the faith?

This last year I finished preaching through the book of First Corinthians, and ended up with a commentary of over 600 pages. I believe that is far more profitable than an elementary catechism.
ARBCAchurches use the 1689 as their statement of faith
A

The 1689 is the same...since 1689.
And I care because???
Well Lets see DHK..you say it is not biblical....
The English word “catechism” is derived from the Gk. verb katēchēo, “to
resound, teach orally, instruct by mouth.” This term originally had the idea of
“speaking down or from above” i.e., from actors on an elevated stage. It is a
compound of the preposition kata, “down, throughout, thoroughly” and the
verb ēchēo, “to sound,” the source of our English word, “echo.” There seems
to be in this etymology the idea of a responsive answer. Catechizing has the
connotation of thorough or repeated oral instruction, and is only one of
several related terms for instruction or teaching found in Scripture. The term
itself occurs eight times in the New Testament (twice as “informed” in Acts
21:21, 24, referring to word–of–mouth information):
“That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou
hast been catechized.” Luke 1:4.
18
“This man had been constantly catechized in the way of the Lord;
and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the
things of the Lord...” Acts 18:25.
“And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more
excellent, being constantly catechized out of the law...” Romans
2:18.
“Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my
understanding, that by my voice I might catechize others also, than
ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” 1 Cor. 14:19.
“Let him who is being catechized in the word communicate unto him
who catechizes in all good things.” Gal. 6:6.


1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

katēcheō
Thayer Definition:
1) to sound towards, sound down upon, resound
1a) to charm with resounding sound, to fascinate
2) to teach orally, to instruct
3) to inform by word of mouth
3a) to be orally informed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G2279
Citing in TDNT: 3:638, 422

Robertson indicates that this word is not a common word in the NT. Where it is used elsewhere he comments:
Had been instructed in the way of the Lord (ên katêchêmenos tên hodon tou kuriou). Periphrastic past perfect passive of katêcheô, rare in the old Greek and not in the LXX from kata and êcheô (êchô, sound) as in Lu 1:4, to re-sound, to re-echo, to teach by repeated dinning into the ears as the Arabs do now, to teach orally by word of mouth (and ear). Here the accusative of the thing (the word) is retained in the passive like with didaskô, to teach (Robertson, Grammar, p. 485).
It doesn't necessarily mean "catechize," or especially "have a catechism," which there is no proof or evidence that NT believers had.

They opened the Scriptures and were taught from them.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
You said it was not found in scripture ,so evidently you would not be able to write a better one if you do not even know it is indeed biblical.
All doctrine is found in the Scripture. What doctrine do you think I will not be able to find in the Scripture?

One thing is for sure, you did not find a catechism in the Scripture. You typically allegorized Scripture trying to spiritualize Scripture--the Origen-way. It doesn't work that way. If you want to know what the Bible teaches then study the Bible, not the works of men.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Then you need to go and buy some good books.

I have seen it. It took me five seconds to search it and skim through parts of it on the internet. Yes, I could write something just as good if not better. Why? Because I don't agree with all of it, for one reason. And secondly, it is simply systematic theology, which I have been teaching for some time anyway. Where have you been Icon, if you don't know the basics of the faith?

This last year I finished preaching through the book of First Corinthians, and ended up with a commentary of over 600 pages. I believe that is far more profitable than an elementary catechism.

And I care because???


[/B][/COLOR]
1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

katēcheō
Thayer Definition:
1) to sound towards, sound down upon, resound
1a) to charm with resounding sound, to fascinate
2) to teach orally, to instruct
3) to inform by word of mouth
3a) to be orally informed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G2279
Citing in TDNT: 3:638, 422

Robertson indicates that this word is not a common word in the NT. Where it is used elsewhere he comments:

It doesn't necessarily mean "catechize," or especially "have a catechism," which there is no proof or evidence that NT believers had.

They opened the Scriptures and were taught from them.
Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All doctrine is found in the Scripture. What doctrine do you think I will not be able to find in the Scripture?

One thing is for sure, you did not find a catechism in the Scripture. You typically allegorized Scripture trying to spiritualize Scripture--the Origen-way. It doesn't work that way. If you want to know what the Bible teaches then study the Bible, not the works of men.



I will stick by my post here DHK.:thumbs:
 

saturneptune

New Member
...I immediately turn on the BB Forum, and I see Iconoclast in the midst of the hot spots causing the smoke.

I had my run with Icon a week or so ago, so I'm thankful to God that there are others on the BB to keep him entertained and challenged. :thumbs:
It is all smoke (and mirrors). Certainly no light.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Think that we can see the value of using Confessionals as TOOLS/AIDS to one studying the bible, as they list important doctrines and give refernces, but the NEVER are scripture, nor EVER take the place of the bible itself!

And we should keep in mind the works of a Calvin/Luther, but also need to know and interact with best of the modern writting also!

Think problems come when we are either totally "oldworks/Confessionals", or totally "No Confessions/old writtings!"
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
...I immediately turn on the BB Forum, and I see Iconoclast in the midst of the hot spots causing the smoke.

I had my run with Icon a week or so ago, so I'm thankful to God that there are others on the BB to keep him entertained and challenged. :thumbs:

Ahhhh Dude......did he hurt your feelings & make you cry in your pillow?

Listen brother, you got a problem with somebody then take it private. Im getting sick of these constant attacks on the brother. Look the guys got strong convictions & so do you.....so what, conflict sometimes is a good thing because it defines & clarifies. But dont start P'ing & moaning about it.....thats nothin but back bighting & its judgmental! At the end of the day, its also sinful. Christ has advised that if you have a problem with your brother, to go & rectify it. Right!!!! Matthew 5:24
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AS Always....You Are Way Out of Line....

Ahhhh Dude......did he hurt your feelings & make you cry in your pillow?

Listen brother, you got a problem with somebody then take it private. Im getting sick of these constant attacks on the brother. Look the guys got strong convictions & so do you.....so what, conflict sometimes is a good thing because it defines & clarifies. But dont start P'ing & moaning about it.....thats nothin but back bighting & its judgmental! At the end of the day, its also sinful. Christ has advised that if you have a problem with your brother, to go & rectify it. Right!!!! Matthew 5:24

Icon and I can kid around about our disagreements, and that is all this is. I love to banter back and forth with him.

And in response to your comment, "No my feelings were not hurt!" Icon and I came through that run in with a better understanding of each other. We don't agree, but, we do respect each other.

A word of advice for you EW&F: I know you mean well, but lighten up a bit [stress is known to cause heart attacks in stressful folks]. I am only giving my brother a hard time, in a humorous way, and if you don't like it, then try another OP. :BangHead:

I'm not siding with anyone on this topic. Just trying to add a little levity to keep it light :laugh:

Oh, and while we're on the topic, why not take your own advice? You say: "you got a problem with somebody then take it private!" And, "...the end of the day, its also sinful. Christ has advised that if you have a problem with your brother, to go & rectify it. Right!!!!" Matthew 5:24

Next time you make an assumption, take it PRIVATE. After all, in your comments, you slammed me; judged me; and insinuated I had my feelings "hurt!" I can't stand hypocrisy any more than the next man, so take your own advice, and PM me.
 
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Herald

New Member
While on the subject, what would be your opinion of the difference between heresy and blasphamey?

Heresy* - a view chosen instead of the official teachings of a church. Such a view is thus regarded as wrong and potentially dangerous for faith.

Blasphemy* - Expressing through speech or writing that which is impious, mocking, or contemptuous toward God.

Heresy is a belief, while blasphemy is an expression of thought.

*"Dictionary of Theological Terms", Donald K. McKim
 

Herald

New Member
There are some beliefs that the majority of the Church has labeled as heretical (i.e. Arianism, Gnosticism, Donatism et. al), and then there are beliefs that have been labeled as heretical by specific denominations.
 
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