Little Green Men

[MB]

An interesting topic, but without any presentation of the biblical view. Instead we get a sales pitch, buy the book or subscribe to the pod-cast.

For those interested in the actual topic:

1) Does the bible say God did not create life elsewhere in the universe?

No the Bible does not say that He did or did not

2) Does life existing elsewhere prove life evolved from non-life?

Negatives cannot prove anything.

3) Is the speed of light a limit that cannot be exceeded, making travel outside our solar system close to impossible?

No one really knows this answer with out trying to travel that fast. Scientific theories tend to be supposed guesses. Men use to believe they could not survive traveling at 60 miles and hour. Certainly this has been found untrue.
MB

 

[Van]

No the Bible does not say that He did or did not
I agree
Negatives cannot prove anything.
Not a valid argument, in my opinion, it is simply that life elsewhere does not prove it evolved from non-life.
No one really knows this answer with out trying to travel that fast. Scientific theories tend to be supposed guesses. Men use to believe they could not survive traveling at 60 miles and hour. Certainly this has been found untrue.
MB

Linear accelerators show that rather than speeding up, particles with mass simply increase in mass not speed when approaching the SOL. Thus there is evidence for the speed limit for things with mass.

Particle accelerators don’t just accelerate particles; they also make them more massive.
As Einstein predicted in his theory of relativity, no particle that has mass can travel as fast as the speed of light—about 186,000 miles per second. No matter how much energy one adds to an object with mass, its speed cannot reach that limit.

In modern accelerators, particles are sped up to very nearly the speed of light. For example, the main injector at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory accelerates protons to 0.99997 times the speed of light. As the speed of a particle gets closer and closer to the speed of light, an accelerator gives more and more of its boost to the particle’s kinetic energy.

Since, as Einstein told us, an object’s energy is equal to its mass times the speed of light squared (E=mc2), adding energy is, in effect, also increasing the particles’ mass. Said another way: Where there is more “E,” there must be more “m.” As an object with mass approaches, but never reaches, the speed of light, its effective mass gets larger and larger.​

 

[Aaron]

Genesis 6:17 (NASB95)
Sound bible interpretation includes an effort not to expand the intended scope of a reference, to some unintended greater scope.

Actually, it means drawing inferences and arriving at sound conclusions. The Pentateuch, you would say, is silent on the Resurrection. But Jesus said Moses wasn't silent at all about the Resurrection. Luke 20:37 . At the burning bush, God said, I am the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob.

The reasoning goes as follows:

If there is no resurrection, what does that say of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?​

That they're dead.
​

Is God the god of the dead, or of the living?​

He is the God of the living.
​

So if God said that He is the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, what does that say of them?​

That they are living.
​

Therefore?

The dead will rise.
​

You see how that's done? We are just as accountable to know what is implied by revelation as we are to know what is explicit. What one should be very careful about is projecting his dullness as the silence of God.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Is the entire physical universe, seen and unseen in this verse? Or is it not?

 

[Van]

Actually, it means drawing inferencesTherefore?

SNIP

​

​

Screed to hide truth is the hallmark of the uninformed.

Genesis 6:17 (NASB95)
“Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.

Here the implication was Genesis 6:17 supported that "all flesh" (in which is the breath of life) was located on earth. But just as likely all flesh refers only to all the flesh on earth and is silent concerning unknown life on unknown worlds beyond the naked eye.

Thus once more, evidence we are the only life in the universe from the bible is based on presupposition. "From under heaven" probably refers to the visible heaven, indicating the full known expanse of the earth.

Sound bible interpretation includes an effort not to expand the intended scope of a reference, to some unintended greater scope.
Rather than the least something could include (creation refers to born anew believers) an expansionist would claim the reference includes what was unknown to the author.

 

[Aaron]

Sound bible interpretation includes an effort not to expand the intended scope of a reference, to some unintended greater scope.

I'm asking you about the scope. Is Genesis 1:1 about the entire physical universe or not? And how do you know?

Rather than the least something could include (creation refers to born anew believers) an expansionist would claim the reference includes what was unknown to the author.

Is Genesis 1:1 about what Moses could see, or about what God revealed?

 

[Aaron]

Well, it seems our obfuscating friend has no answer.

So, to the Scriptures: the Creation is divided into two major features, 1) the heaven, by which is meant the region above the earth to the edge of the waters that are above the vast expanse that we call space; and 2) earth, that place where the waters that were divided from the great deep below the expanse were gathered into one place to reveal dry land.

All of what we call the universe is referred to in Genesis 1:1 as the heaven and the earth. There is no region of space that exists that is not contained in this verse, or the next in which the heaven and the earth are referred to collectively as the Deep.

In verse six, God creates two main divisions in the waters of the Deep with a vast expanse. The two divisions are the waters above the expanse, and the waters below the expanse. He doesn't name the waters above the expanse, but the waters below the expanse He called "Seas."

Then He gathered the Seas into one place and dry land appeared, and He called the dry land earth. The oceans of Earth, are the waters below the expanse.

In verse 14, God made lights and set them in the expanse. These are the Sun, Moon and Stars (which includes the planets), and they were made for the purpose of giving light upon the earth.

It doesn't matter that some objects in space are not their own sources of light. The Moon is called a light, and it doesn't have its own source. If we can see them, regardless of whether or not the eye is aided, it is because it's light is coming to earth. And they are there for signs, and so that we can measure days and seasons on Earth.

All that was placed in the heaven, was for the purpose of those living on earth.

 

[Aaron]

Is, "creation," G2937 in all or Romans relative to G2937 as used in Romans 1:20, creation of the world (system or configuration) even in 8:39 where it would be used as other or different - system or configuration?

As in the creation of the world (system or configuration) in 8:20; for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,

What would that say or not say about, "the creation different," in 8:39?


BTW I do not have an answer. I am just asking.

I'm not exactly sure what is being asked here, or if it's even being asked of me. But I've never taken the word "creation" or "creature" here to mean the gentiles or the world system. That seems to be a forced reading to me.

 

[Van]

I'm asking you about the scope. Is Genesis 1:1 about the entire physical universe or not? And how do you know?

Is Genesis 1:1 about what Moses could see, or about what God revealed?

No, as the bible answers that question, God made the entire universe as described in Genesis 1:1.

Basically we have a liberal bible interpreter saying to assume the meaning intended concerning what the bible does not specifically address. From my side of the street, those are the hermeneutics of those who read between the lines, make unwarranted inferences, and expand the scope of scripture past its intended meaning.

They read back into scripture the worldview of today.

 

[percho]

I'm not exactly sure what is being asked here, or if it's even being asked of me. But I've never taken the word "creation" or "creature" here to mean the gentiles or the world system. That seems to be a forced reading to me.

Not to you it was quoted to van.

I will try and explain my thoughts.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That is creation. However I do not believe that is how the word, "creation," is being used in Romans.

I believe in Romans it is used not as to the creation of the heavens and the earth but in the context of the foundation of the world (kosmos) because of how it is stated in Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world (kosmos) His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

Van only wants to apply the creation to humans whereas I believe it relates to the, foundation of the world. For example in Verse 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I believe when the sons of God are manifested, the lion will lay down with the lamb, the earth will not be cursed and so forth.

I believe before man sinned Verse applied: YLT for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, --- That which was very good in verse 31 of Gen 1 was subjected to vanity.

Why do I believe that?

Because of the in, "Hope"?

That hope is, "the manifested sons of God," those who are no longer awaiting the adoption to wit, redemption of the body.

That redemption of the body is what Peter speaks of in 1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The hope was foreordained because the creation was going to be subjected to vanity. IMHO

The purpose of this was the destruction of the devil and his works, who existed before the foundation of the world. Again IMHO and probably only MO. That's OK also.

 

[Van]

Look at the word creation in context. If the "creation" is aware, has knowledge, or is desiring something, humankind is in view. For example, clearly Romans 1:20 refers to humans. In Romans 8:39, "any other created thing" refers to the created things in the mind of the author, not unknown things. And again, look at Romans 8:20-22, clearly creation is identified as humankind in verse 22.

To claim creation refers to other than humans in Romans 1:20 is biblical interpretation malpractice. The foundation of the earth is not aware of God's invisible attributes.

To claim created things in Romans 8:39 only refers to humans is again to engage in biblical interpretation malpractice. And to claim that is my view is a vicious falsehood.

 

[Van]

The Bible tells us that the one doing the action is the Creator, the action is creating, and the result is the creation. Since God created the Heavens and the Earth, we must infer whether all of creation, i.e. the Universe, or some lesser part of creation, i.e. a born anew believer is in view. If the context points to a specific creation, perhaps using a less general term might help us better understand the word of God.

Mark 10:6 (NASB) But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.

Here our choices are (1) the whole Universe or (2) humankind. Contextually humankind is the creation in view. So would not the actual intended message be "But from the beginning of humankind, God made them male and female?

Mark13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Here, again, tribulation refers to the hard times humankind will endure, and thus creation refers to humankind.

Mark16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

The creation in view again is humankind.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Here another New Testament writer (Paul) uses the phrase "creation of the world" to refer to the creation of humankind. Since the "creation" is specifically identified, "creation of humankind" better conveys the message. Clearly only humankind could see using some spiritual ability God's eternal power and divine nature.

Romans 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Here it is not clear (at least to me) just what is being worshiped and served as if divine. Satan, idols made by hand, physical gratification all might be in view. I think "the creation" leaves open God's message.

Romans 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

But here again, humankind is in view.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Once again we see humankind is in view. Those that think something more is in view cannot explain how those other things could "hope."

 

[Aaron]

Not to you it was quoted to van.

I will try and explain my thoughts.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That is creation. However I do not believe that is how the word, "creation," is being used in Romans.

I believe in Romans it is used not as to the creation of the heavens and the earth but in the context of the foundation of the world (kosmos) because of how it is stated in Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world (kosmos) His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

Van only wants to apply the creation to humans whereas I believe it relates to the, foundation of the world. For example in Verse 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I believe when the sons of God are manifested, the lion will lay down with the lamb, the earth will not be cursed and so forth.

I believe before man sinned Verse applied: YLT for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, --- That which was very good in verse 31 of Gen 1 was subjected to vanity.

Why do I believe that?

Because of the in, "Hope"?

That hope is, "the manifested sons of God," those who are no longer awaiting the adoption to wit, redemption of the body.

That redemption of the body is what Peter speaks of in 1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The hope was foreordained because the creation was going to be subjected to vanity. IMHO

The purpose of this was the destruction of the devil and his works, who existed before the foundation of the world. Again IMHO and probably only MO. That's OK also.

Creation, in this instance too, refers to all creation.

 

[Aaron]

Look at the word creation in context. If the "creation" is aware, has knowledge, or is desiring something, humankind is in view. For example, clearly Romans 1:20 refers to humans. In Romans 8:39, "any other created thing" refers to the created things in the mind of the author, not unknown things. And again, look at Romans 8:20-22, clearly creation is identified as humankind in verse 22.

To claim creation refers to other than humans in Romans 1:20 is biblical interpretation malpractice. The foundation of the earth is not aware of God's invisible attributes.

To claim created things in Romans 8:39 only refers to humans is again to engage in biblical interpretation malpractice. And to claim that is my view is a vicious falsehood.

Genesis 18:20 , What does it mean that the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is very great?

Or Genesis 4:10 , what is meant by the voice of the blood of Abel?

And how does that differ from creation groaning? Romans 8:22 .

 

[Van]

Genesis 18:20 , What does it mean that the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is very great?
Or Genesis 4:10 , what is meant by the voice of the blood of Abel?
And how does that differ from creation groaning? Romans 8:22 .

Does personification ring a bell?
Those that advocate reading between the lines are advocating liberal bible interpretation, which promotes false doctrine based on speculation and presupposition.

 

[Aaron]

Mark 10:6 (NASB) But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.

So would not the actual intended message be "But from the beginning of humankind, God made them male and female?

No. If it were worded "from their beginning," or from "the day man was created," or "from the beginning of man," one might be able to say that.
The Spirit uses such wording often when such is the case.

Isaiah 18:2
Ezekiel 28:15
Deuteronomy 4:32

When Christ said from the beginning of Creation, He means from the beginning of time, this was not something in God's mind.

Mark13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Again, from the moment heaven and earth came into existence.

Mark16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Every creature, actually.

The creation in view again is humankind.

Not merely human kind, but even those justly called dogs or swine. God is mindful not only of men, but sparrows.

Again a universal view is in mind, every land, and every man.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Here another New Testament writer (Paul) uses the phrase "creation of the world" to refer to the creation of humankind. Since the "creation" is specifically identified, "creation of humankind" better conveys the message. Clearly only humankind could see using some spiritual ability God's eternal power and divine nature.

This is completely forced. It isn't creation that is doing the seeing, but seen. God's eternal power and godhead are clearly seen in the things that are made.

]Romans 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

But here again, humankind is in view.

Except for the fact that there are only a few people that long for revelation of Christ. The entire creation was subjected to vanity. The ground is cursed, and animals die, and stars decay.

"Change and decay in all around I see . . . " (Lyte)

Once again we see humankind is in view. Those that think something more is in view cannot explain how those other things could "hope."

It was subjected "in hope." Animals entered into the Ark. It was for the sake of the elect, but there is some claim that creation has in Christ. It was made for Him.

 

[Aaron]

Does personification ring a bell?
Those that advocate reading between the lines are advocating liberal bible interpretation, which promotes false doctrine based on speculation and presupposition.

Because you won't answer the question, I will. Creation groaning, and eagerly awaiting is said in the same manner that it is said the land cries, and that Abel's blood cries.

 

[Aaron]

No, as the bible answers that question, God made the entire universe as described in Genesis 1:1

Finally an answer.

So the scope of Genesis 1:1 is universal. None of your wresting of the NT passages is relevant.

So there are two main features of the universe, the heaven and the earth. What was placed in the heaven, and what was placed in the earth?

 

[Van]

No. If it were worded "from their beginning," or
SNIP
When Christ said from the beginning of Creation, He means from the beginning of time, this was not something in God's mind.
You have no idea of what Christ was referring to with "in the beginning." You simply claim your presupposition is valid. Nonsense.
SNIP
Every creature, actually.Not merely human kind, but even those justly called dogs or swine. God is mindful not only of men, but sparrows. Nonsense Dogs, and pigs do not respond to the gospel. Here we see absurdity posted to hide truth.

It isn't creation that is doing the seeing, but seen. Note the complete reversal of the text.
SNIP
The entire creation was subjected to vanity. The ground is cursed, and animals die, and stars decay. Again, rocks, water, air are not sentient.

It was subjected "in hope." SNIP

And once again the text is rewritten, so that creation (humankind) does not hope, but rocks do hope. Nonsense again and again.

 

[Van]

Because you won't answer the question, I will. Creation groaning, and eagerly awaiting is said in the same manner that it is said the land cries, and that Abel's blood cries.

And once again we get unreasoning absurdity, rather than sound reasoning. Rocks, water, air do not groan in anticipation of Christ's return. Such nonsense belongs back in the dark ages from where it came.

 

[Van]

Finally an answer.
So the scope of Genesis 1:1 is universal. None of your wresting of the NT passages is relevant.
So there are two main features of the universe, the heaven and the earth. What was placed in the heaven, and what was placed in the earth?

I have explained why your view is nonsense. I accepted the very words of the NT to derive my reasoned view, your view is absurd. Note Genesis 1:1 does not say the heaven (singular) and the earth, but heavens, of which according to their understanding included three heavens. So when you see "heaven" singular in the text, you must decide which of the three is in view.