Looking for a good answer

[Judith]

I hope this does not violate the board rules as I am serious about the question, but if so just remove it. As we know today our society is swiftly changing to pro homosexual marriage whether as a personal choice or just the right for anyone else who wants it. It is no longer a stigma to be out with the lifestyle and even supported and encouraged now by our government.

My question is this. When trying to show that it is wrong and should not be allowed because it is bad for society what is your response to the claim it does not hurt anyone else so it should not be illegal as It is two consenting adults doing what they want and no one else's business as it does not hurt anyone else so it shuld be legal?
Other than pointing to, "it is against God," what is your response? I assume that such a response would also apply to multiple husbands or wives at the same time. Do you have a response that does not intregate God into the mix or is this strickly a religious issue?

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Well Judith, there are a number of reasons, but as a former pastor my opposition to homosexual “marriage” was based on religious freedom. You see marriage is a unique institution in that it is both an institution initiated and ordained by God, and also a civil contract before the state.

Unbelievers will sin, that is what they do. Homosexuality will increase in the land and it is a mark of our demise as a nation, but it is also what lost sinners do, they sin. So in keeping with idea of freedom of religion in America, I had no problem with homosexual “civil unions.” That sounds like a politician’s cop out to avoid the issue, but it is the truth. Married couples have certain unique priveledges under the law, from joint tax returns to insurance beneficiaries to family health care policies. I have no problem extending these benefits to homosexuals in a committed relationship. To deny these benefits in fact to me seems like religious persecution. They don’t believe what we do so we penalize them.

But, as soon as you call it “Marriage” you have changed the situation. Now instead of religious belief’s taking rights away from non-believers, we have non-believers forcing their views on the religious. Consider the baker who was forced to provide a wedding cake for a homosexual couple.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/12/Christian-Baker-Willing-to-Go-to-Jail-for-Declining-Gay-Wedding-Cake

How would you feel if your pastor was obligated, under the law, to conduct a wedding ceremony for a same sex couple? How would you feel if your church was required by law to allow them to use your auditorium? Under legalized homosexual marriage these things could happen.

It is not about leaving consenting adults alone and let them do what they want. It is about them forcing us to accept and even condone their choices. It is about forcing homosexuality in the face of Christians and daring them to say it’s wrong so you can sue them for hate speech.

The current homosexual marriage agenda has nothing to do with rights for homosexuals and everything to do with taking away the freedom of speech from Christians who disagree with the homosexual’s lifestyle.

 

[Zaac]

I hope this does not violate the board rules as I am serious about the question, but if so just remove it. As we know today our society is swiftly changing to pro homosexual marriage whether as a personal choice or just the right for anyone else who wants it. It is no longer a stigma to be out with the lifestyle and even supported and encouraged now by our government.

My question is this. When trying to show that it is wrong and should not be allowed because it is bad for society what is your response to the claim it does not hurt anyone else so it should not be illegal as It is two consenting adults doing what they want and no one else's business as it does not hurt anyone else so it shuld be legal?
Other than pointing to, "it is against God," what is your response? I assume that such a response would also apply to multiple husbands or wives at the same time. Do you have a response that does not intregate God into the mix or is this strickly a religious issue?

Judith I believe we make our mistake when we start singling out issues. When we single out issues, we tend to do it in such a way that it comes across as us against them trying to win an issue argument.

Say we win the argument. Then what? We've convinced them and then they are still going to hell if they are unBelievers.

In order to show people that we love them as Christ loves them,it is INCUMBENT that we address ALL of the sin in their lives and not just one issue. We do nothing more than alienate and push away when we focus on one issue and not the need to be forgiven of ALL of their sins.

 

[Judith]

Neither of those first answers deals with the issue. When dealing with the question posed by the lost on the issue pointing to God does not answer how is it hurting anyone or anything outsaide of religious beliefs. I was looking at a way to deal with them on their level and then after that God can be introduced.

 

[Don]

If I may ... I think you indicated where it could be addressed when you said their excuse is that it doesn't hurt anyone else. First, that's a very selfish and childish view. Childish, because it means that "I'm gonna get what I want, and I'll use whatever excuse I have to in order to get my way." Selfish, because it looks only to satisfying personal wants, without consideration to the fact that everything we do affects everything and everyone around us.

Drug users and gluttons use the same rationalization. At the end of the day, they've caused harm to themselves; which, in turn, affects those who have to cover for them at work when they can't work; or those that have to care for them when they become ill as a result of their personal self-satisfaction; or those who have to give up their personal freedoms or suborn their personal beliefs in order to accomodate them.

We are each the pebble, which God throws into this giant pond we call "life." The ripples caused by our entry into the water eventually touch all the shore.

 

[Zaac]

Neither of those first answers deals with the issue. When dealing with the question posed by the lost on the issue pointing to God does not answer how is it hurting anyone or anything outsaide of religious beliefs. I was looking at a way to deal with them on their level and then after that God can be introduced.

Again, you're attempting to stay with the status quo and come at them about an ISSUE. The problem is SIN, not issues. Preach the GOSPEL and deal with them about ALL of their sin, and not just an issue.

What you're looking for is what the church has miserably done again and again. You want to go back and forth about one issue. Deal with the state of their eternal souls.

 

[Judith]

If I may ... I think you indicated where it could be addressed when you said their excuse is that it doesn't hurt anyone else. First, that's a very selfish and childish view. Childish, because it means that "I'm gonna get what I want, and I'll use whatever excuse I have to in order to get my way." Selfish, because it looks only to satisfying personal wants, without consideration to the fact that everything we do affects everything and everyone around us.

Drug users and gluttons use the same rationalization. At the end of the day, they've caused harm to themselves; which, in turn, affects those who have to cover for them at work when they can't work; or those that have to care for them when they become ill as a result of their personal self-satisfaction; or those who have to give up their personal freedoms or suborn their personal beliefs in order to accomodate them.

We are each the pebble, which God throws into this giant pond we call "life." The ripples caused by our entry into the water eventually touch all the shore.

Hello Don,
Yes I agree with what you said but it would not go very far in convincing those using the argument it hurts no one as they see selfishness as a virture not a vice.

 

[pk4life]

The church has the power to reclaim marriage, and leave the government out of it all together...

You just won't get your tax benefits...

 

[Zaac]

Hello Don,
Yes I agree with what you said but it would not go very far in convincing those using the argument it hurts no one as they see selfishness as a virture not a vice.

They wouldn't have "it hurts no one" as a defense if the church wasn't arguing with them about that as opposed to just sharing the Gospel in love and pointing them towards the need for a Savior to forgive ALL of their sins instead of our need to give convincing arguments about why they are wrong on an issue.:jesus:

 

[Don]

Hello Don,
Yes I agree with what you said but it would not go very far in convincing those using the argument it hurts no one as they see selfishness as a virture not a vice.

If this is truly where they're at, then Zaac is absolutely right. You're trying to convince them, when what they need is conviction. You might need to consider Titus 3:10.

 

[OldRegular]

Neither of those first answers deals with the issue. When dealing with the question posed by the lost on the issue pointing to God does not answer how is it hurting anyone or anything outsaide of religious beliefs. I was looking at a way to deal with them on their level and then after that God can be introduced.

Judith, I thought the tentmaker gave a good response, but that is just my opinion.

Consider this! Is the practice of homosexuality increasing or decreasing. I believe it is increasing and it is increasing because it has become acceptable in our culture. Homosexuality is the choice of a perverted mind. The fact that this perversion is now legitimized by "marriage" will, in my opinion, increase further the practice of homosexuality. That will be disastrous for this country as it has for other nations/empires in history. So you see we are all being hurt by the legitimization of homosexuality. This is particularly true of the younger generations.

Consider further how screwy the minds of some people are. Some parents are now refusing to identify their child as male or female, presumably allowing them to decide at some point in life. Does that not hurt the individual child as well as our culture in general. I believe so!

May I also add? As I said above I believe homosexual behavior is a choice. It is not likely that you will be able to convince one who has made that choice they are either wrong or hurting anyone.

 

[Zaac]

If this is truly where they're at, then Zaac is absolutely right. You're trying to convince them, when what they need is conviction. You might need to consider Titus 3:10.

The people of God have got to recognize that He did not leave us here to win arguments about issues. The lost believe as people absent the Holy Spirit should believe: that the world revolves around them and their quest for happiness and fulfillment.

Others believe these things because they are trying to use it to cope with brokenness that they have no completely given to Christ.

People want to be loved. That's why they have turned to these things that God says to not do. A lot of them have been rejected by their families because of their orientations, and thus they get more involved in a community that they feel accepts them and loves them.

We are letting false teaching about what love is fill the role that Christ and Christians should be filling.

 

[Zaac]

Judith, I thought the tentmaker gave a good response, but that is just my opinion.

Consider this! Is the practice of homosexuality increasing or decreasing. I believe it is increasing and it is increasing because it has become acceptable in our culture. Homosexuality is the choice of a perverted mind. The fact that this perversion is now legitimized by "marriage" will, in my opinion, increase further the practice of homosexuality. That will be disastrous for this country as it has for other nations/empires in history. So you see we are all being hurt by the legitimization of homosexuality. This is particularly true of the younger generations.

Consider further how screwy the minds of some people are. Some parents are now refusing to identify their child as male or female, presumably allowing them to decide at some point in life. Does that not hurt the individual child as well as our culture in general. I believe so!

May I also add? As I said above I believe homosexual behavior is a choice. It is not likely that you will be able to convince one who has made that choice they are either wrong or hurting anyone.

Precisely. As with all sin, we must approach it in the Spiritual, not the physical. That's why we tell the Gospel of a Savior who loves us enough to forgive us and accept us into His family no matter what we've done.

 

[Don]

The people of God have got to recognize that He did not leave us here to win arguments about issues. The lost believe as people absent the Holy Spirit should believe: that the world revolves around them and their quest for happiness and fulfillment.

Others believe these things because they are trying to use it to cope with brokenness that they have no completely given to Christ.

People want to be loved. That's why they have turned to these things that God says to not do. A lot of them have been rejected by their families because of their orientations, and thus they get more involved in a community that they feel accepts them and loves them.

We are letting false teaching about what love is fill the role that Christ and Christians should be filling.

(Deleted message)

 

[Don]

Precisely. As with all sin, we must approach it in the Spiritual, not the physical. That's why we tell the Gospel of a Savior who loves us enough to forgive us and accept us into His family no matter what we've done.

That's exactly what most, if not all, of us preach. But what's next? You mention "what we've done"; what do we tell them about what we do tomorrow?

 

[Yeshua1]

I hope this does not violate the board rules as I am serious about the question, but if so just remove it. As we know today our society is swiftly changing to pro homosexual marriage whether as a personal choice or just the right for anyone else who wants it. It is no longer a stigma to be out with the lifestyle and even supported and encouraged now by our government.

My question is this. When trying to show that it is wrong and should not be allowed because it is bad for society what is your response to the claim it does not hurt anyone else so it should not be illegal as It is two consenting adults doing what they want and no one else's business as it does not hurt anyone else so it shuld be legal?
Other than pointing to, "it is against God," what is your response? I assume that such a response would also apply to multiple husbands or wives at the same time. Do you have a response that does not intregate God into the mix or is this strickly a religious issue?

IF one is a Christian, than God prohobits that, as HE defined already what real marriage is to Him, and that settles it!

From a practical sense, children need to have a mom/dad to raise them, need to have their imaging/role modeling, and neither 2 men/2 ladies acting as amrried can make up for that being lacking in home!

Those whom GOD has put together, let non asunder, but God does NOT approve/condone realise them as really married, so they live in continual fornication!

 

[Zaac]

That's exactly what most, if not all, of us preach. But what's next? You mention "what we've done"; what do we tell them about what we do tomorrow?

The preaching of the Gospel in love covers what they will do tomorrow too. But it becomes nearly impossible to share the Word of God that sets men free when we place the barrier of issues between us.

 

[Zaac]

IF one is a Christian, than God prohobits that, as HE defined already what real marriage is to Him, and that settles it!

PRECISELY so why would there be a need for us to go back and forth with them on something God has already deemed?

 

[Yeshua1]

PRECISELY so why would there be a need for us to go back and forth with them on something God has already deemed?

In order to NOT have the Govt make it legal, nor to have churches support that, and condone that, under liberty/freedom/"love of Christ!"

 

[Yeshua1]

Judith I believe we make our mistake when we start singling out issues. When we single out issues, we tend to do it in such a way that it comes across as us against them trying to win an issue argument.

Say we win the argument. Then what? We've convinced them and then they are still going to hell if they are unBelievers.

In order to show people that we love them as Christ loves them,it is INCUMBENT that we address ALL of the sin in their lives and not just one issue. We do nothing more than alienate and push away when we focus on one issue and not the need to be forgiven of ALL of their sins.

How is condoning and allowing them to stay in sin, and continually being told, falsely, that God accepts your homosexuality as "just the way he made you?"