Lordship Salvation Defended

[Revmitchell]

You call me evil because I tell you the truth.

Ok, again you misrepresent things. We are seeing a pattern here. I did not call you evil.

 

[Iconoclast]

Until you actually know what LS is you should refrain from speaking about it. You are clueless.

Most will offer a caricature of the teaching then beat that up for awhile:thumbs:

it is easier than working through all the related passages:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God

If a person has to do these things in order to be saved then salvation is no different from pagan religions. It is works-based.
Salvation in Christianity is a free gift. It is by grace through faith, and not of works, including the above works.

 

[Iconoclast]

If a person has to do these things in order to be saved then salvation is no different from pagan religions. It is works-based.
Salvation in Christianity is a free gift. It is by grace through faith, and not of works, including the above works.

No one said anything about earning or working for salvation....


26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Yeshua1]

No one said anything about earning or working for salvation....


26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

So you have actually forsaken all sins and things to follow Jesus?

The truth in the Bible is that jesus is the Lord over all persons, saved and lost, and that you are confusing how one gets saved and how one then starts to become a disciple of his!

In your understanding, just when and how a sinner becomes a saint then?

 

[Revmitchell]

So you have actually forsaken all sins and things to follow Jesus?

The truth in the Bible is that jesus is the Lord over all persons, saved and lost, and that you are confusing how one gets saved and how one then starts to become a disciple of his!

In your understanding, just when and how a sinner becomes a saint then?

OK instead of the false caricature veiled with a question mark why don't you deal with the scripture he posted. Show how it does not mean what he says it does and then show what it does mean.

The fact is you cannot.

 

[OldRegular]

The problem with all of this is there are people who come to Jesus, much like the rich young ruler, and want a Savior but who care nothing about the Lord. They want to miss the possibility of going to hell but they intend on carrying on their lives as before. They do not want God in their life, they do not want a new life, they only want to miss hell.

Now you all can call it something else. You all can delineate your understanding of this however you want to but, in the end if you come to God for salvation you have to want a relationship with God. Not just what God can provide.

In order to have that relationship you have to have a desire to do it His way. To live life His way. To submit to Him. Even early on as Christians we do not do that perfect anymore than we do later on but the desire for God and His way is an imperative.

Someone who has no care for God, nor concern for His ways is not a Christian. Period. No matter how much they believe He exists and can save them. No matter how much they want His salvation.

Repentance is not just about changing a belief from not believing in Him to believing in Him. It is about desiring the very God who can provide the very salvation everyone wants.

I believe you state the issue very it well!

Scripture reveals the sins of King David but Scripture also reveals his earnest desire for God.

Psalms 42:1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

 

[OldRegular]

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A114/An-Introduction-to-Lordship-Salvation


Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.

First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Pet. 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.

Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Eph. 2:1-5,8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Phil. 1:6; cf. Heb. 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.
Lordship SalvationThird, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Cor. 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.

Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Cor. 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Gal. 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Rom. 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.
Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3; Rom. 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.
Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Rom. 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.
Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Pet. 1:8-9; Rom. 8:28-30; 1 Cor. 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality. Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.
Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Cor. 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.

Excellent link Icon! I have read a number of MacArthur's books and enjoyed them. I had not read that explanation if how how perceives Lordship Salvation but I agree with what he says.

 

[DHK]

OK instead of the false caricature veiled with a question mark why don't you deal with the scripture he posted. Show how it does not mean what he says it does and then show what it does mean.

The fact is you cannot.

33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
The Scripture quoted deals with discipleship (as stated now many times), not salvation. No new believer, at least in this nation, immediately forsakes all that he has at the time of salvation.
Let me ask you. Have you forsaken ALL that you have, ever in your life, in order to follow Christ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Excellent link Icon! I have read a number of MacArthur's books and enjoyed them. I had not read that explanation if how how perceives Lordship Salvation but I agree with what he says.

Yes..O.R......I do not see how any believer cannot agree with this teaching and remain biblical.I have heard him for years.He does not preach a works salvation or works sanctification at all....that is why I have requested quotes
:thumbs::thumbs::type:

 

[Yeshua1]

Excellent link Icon! I have read a number of MacArthur's books and enjoyed them. I had not read that explanation if how how perceives Lordship Salvation but I agree with what he says.

Bottom line here on this!

On what basis does the Lord forgive our sins, and save is, due to Him knowing and seeing how obedient that we will continue to be for Him, or due to Him deciding to save sinners period, and giving them eternal life knowing full well that they will never obtain sinless perfection while alive?

And just how much sinning and for how long negates and cancels out the shed blood of christ then?

 

[OldRegular]

The concept of "making Christ Lord" is absurd. One cannot "make" or command God to do anything. Who do you think you are that you can command God to be Lord of your life? He already is. He is Lord of all, whether you like it or not!

I agree but I have seen a lot of people walk down the aisle of the Church during the invitation and whisper in the pastors ear. Afterwards the pastor will say: "so & so" accepted Jesus Christ as his/her saviour when he/she was a child and is now coming forward to "make Jesus Christ Lord of his/her life." I always thought that was nonsense and am glad you think so also!

 

[OldRegular]

Bottom line here on this!

On what basis does the Lord forgive our sins, and save is, due to Him knowing and seeing how obedient that we will continue to be for Him, or due to Him deciding to save sinners period, and giving them eternal life knowing full well that they will never obtain sinless perfection while alive?

And just how much sinning and for how long negates and cancels out the shed blood of christ then?

Tell you what to do "y1". Go through each of the nine points that MacArthur presented and refute those things he said with which you disagree. Then perhaps you will answer your own question.

 

[DHK]

I agree but I have seen a lot of people walk down the aisle of the Church during the invitation and whisper in the pastors ear. Afterwards the pastor will say: "so & so" accepted Jesus Christ as his/her saviour when he/she was a child and is now coming forward to "make Jesus Christ Lord of his/her life." I always thought that was nonsense and am glad you think so also!

I also stand against easy-believism. There must be a change. It just doesn't come over-night. So I disagree with the LS theology.

 

[OldRegular]

The issue in LS boils down to works vs. grace.
Is salvation by grace through faith (a one time event)? or,
Is salvation by grace through faith + all the commands of discipleship added in at the same time--which makes it a works salvation.
Which one? You can't have both.

Strange! Very Strange! I read the link provided by Icon and did not read a single word about Salvation by works. Could you please point out where MacArthur teaches Salvation by works in that link. I provide it again to save you the trouble of paging backward!

http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A114/An-Introduction-to-Lordship-Salvation

 

[OldRegular]

I also stand against easy-believism. There must be a change. It just doesn't come over-night. So I disagree with the LS theology.

I don't see where MacArthur states it comes overnight!

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't see where MacArthur states it comes overnight!

The "New' DHK says we Cannot make Jesus Lord.....that is correct.

It is those who oppose Lordship who invite their false converts to walk the aisle a second time, telling them...you have him as savior, now make him lord.

That is why they attack the teaching of real actual salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Tell you what to do "y1". Go through each of the nine points that MacArthur presented and refute those things he said with which you disagree. Then perhaps you will answer your own question.

yes...Y1

here was the original 4 questions...answer them please, then go through the 9 pts offered and answer each one please:thumbs:

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
which sins were you able to keep since professing your faith in Christ ?
which sins did you not have to repent of ?
what sins were you able to continue to practice
which sins are you able to continue in in order that grace can much more abound

 

[Iconoclast]

Bottom line here on this!

On what basis does the Lord forgive our sins

,

that is not the question

and save is, due to Him knowing and seeing how obedient that we will continue to be for Him, or due to Him deciding to save sinners period,

What happens? Save sinners...from what?

and giving them eternal life knowing full well that they will never obtain sinless perfection while alive?

sinless perfection is not the issue.

And just how much sinning and for how long negates and cancels out the shed blood of christ then?

what are you talking about?

No......the bottom line is what is salvation?

 

[Revmitchell]

Bottom line here on this!

On what basis does the Lord forgive our sins, and save is, due to Him knowing and seeing how obedient that we will continue to be for Him, or due to Him deciding to save sinners period, and giving them eternal life knowing full well that they will never obtain sinless perfection while alive?

And just how much sinning and for how long negates and cancels out the shed blood of christ then?

Will someone tell this guy he has no idea what the bottom line actually is!