This has nothing to do with LS.
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Lordship Salvation
- Thread starter Rolfe
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This has nothing to do with LS.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
I agree with this post completely, DHK, in its entirety, but I wanted to focus on this first link you provided, and quote a piece from early on in the article:
I believe that one brief paragraph captures the error of both Lordship and Calvinist adherent on this board. All that need be added to that is the fact of their total rejection of progressive sanctification. Thanks for sharing.
I agree. In that statement it demonstrates why the doctrine negates not only progressive sanctification, but also the denial of "a carnal Christian" which is so clearly taught in 1Cor.3:1-4.
Would say that LS teaching would seem to be more prevalent among reformed calvinists, not Baptist ones!
As many of us who are Baptists and holding to DoG as i do, would still see progressive growth/maturity, and carnal christianity going on!
So someone can be a Christian, but not be a disciple? But then you say Jesus is delineating between he saved and the unsaved... so you agree with me then that Jesus said this to the lost? So it is about salvation? Now I'm confused, or maybe you are.
Also, LS nor Calvinism assumes that we are able to read men's hearts. When are you, and the others like you, going to stop lying about that? No one says that, no one thinks that.
And your focus on the miraculous here is the only red herring I see.
I looked at your links. This man is even more off base than you. He is attacking what he clearly doesn't understand. And I see now why you are having such a hard time with this, because you are getting bad information from bad secondary sources like this guys blog. If you actually want to learn what LS teaches, then listen to Washer or MacArthur yourself, not sound bite snippets from random blogs.
Again, simply wrong.
Repentance is essential and is throughout the Bible, not just the NT. No repentance=no salvation. This idea that you seem to have that one can believe in Christ, never repent and live like the world their entire life and still be a Christian is simply a myth. Salvation really changes you. The gospel actually transforms people. It is supernatural and infallible, if you are saved you will be changed.
Paul Washer and John MacArthur are both Calvinistic Baptists.
So am I, so are my pastors, so are several of my friends... we all also believe in LS.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
That's not what he said. You can be a disciple, and be locked in a prison of sin of your own making: Addiction, adultery, gossiping, compulsive lying, disordered gambling. Doesn't mean you are not saved, as some on here would have you believe. It means you have not learned to surrender yourself completely to Christ. This is progressive sanctification.
This is unbiblical completely as it is a denial of the Supernatural work of salvation setting a person free from sin's dominion.
This is the false idea that passes for Christianity which is unknown to the scripture but those who buy into this "surrender" idea have a flesh based theology...so they find no trouble in a flesh based "Christian" which Paul clearly denies.
RLBosley
Another helpful post as you have answered well on every point. The idea of repentance not being needed is a fleshly idea....Or they suggest it is optional.
That may not have been what he said, but that seems to be the idea that he is getting at. He is arguing against using the "discipleship" passages in relation to salvation. To me that sounds like he is saying that discipleship is optional, therefore one can be a Christian and not a disciple.
Thank you. I've dealt with this issue a lot over the last few years. I ended up being asked to leave a church over it (combined with my rejection of dispy pre-mill) and it just baffles me every time. How can you read the Bible and not see the absolute necessity of repentance, not only in conversion but in growth too.
There is man's idea of repentance, including Washer's,
and then there is Biblical repentance.
Man's idea or repentance (including Washer) leads to a works salvation and is not taught in the Bible. I challenge you to find any Scriptural support for it.
In his invitation he said:
"Repent of your sins, and believe... and you shall be saved."
That is not true nor biblical.
Some go even farther than that and say, "Repent of all your sins..."
Be honest Icon. I don't know at what age you were saved (I was saved at the age of 20). From that day and every single day before that day, could you have possibly remember every single sin in your life that you had every committed, enumerated all of them before the Lord, that is confess them all, so that one by one you would be able to repent of each one of them? It is an impossible act, and one that God does not require of any person. It is works.
That is what is meant to "Repent of ALL your sins," or simply to "Repent of your sins." You can't do it. It is a works based salvation. Nowhere in the Bible does God command an unregenerate/unsaved person to repent of their sins.
Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude to God.
As an unsaved man I was in rebellion to God. I heard the Gospel. I trusted Christ as Saviour and Lord. That was not only an act of faith, it was an act of repentance. They are two sides of the same coin. One doesn't happen without the other.
In putting my faith in Christ I had a change of mind. I repented. Christ is now my Lord. My attitude has changed from one of rebellion to one of submission to Jesus Christ. That is what repentance is. It cannot come without faith. It is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. Once I was in rebellion to God; now I am in submission to his authority.
But Washer says, "Repent of your sins." That is not Biblical; it is a works salvation, something you do.
I think I am beginning to regret asking my question publicly, though it was educational. I did not intend to start another argument.
I simply was looking for a simple, plain definition of Lordship Salvation. Thanks to everyone (well most everyone :laughfor the help.
I feels ya, mah man. Lol. Some a dis dudes cain't read. They's all ready ta bicker' n batter' n a New Yoik minute then talk about Christian brotherly love from da other side a da mouth.
:BangHead:
Yea imagine.....count them....134 posts to answer a simple basic question...freaking amazing! :laugh:
DHK
okay....
We do not agree on this
You have been shown this before DHK; The first sermon on the day of Pentecost uses the exact language;
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Clarify for me....which sins do not have to be repented of? When Peter preached in Acts 2 where did he say repent of some sins for now...like an installment plan?
No...that is not possible to list each individual sin for a lifetime of sin.That being said....being convicted by the Spirit of being guilty of a multitude of sins I confessed my guilt before God of all known sin, all sins done in ignorance and asked for His mercy. That is how I confessed my past sins.
When I meet a person who I have known before God saved me...I will sometimes ask for forgiveness if at any time in the past I have sinned against them if I can remember or not...if I did...they will remember it so I make it part of my testimony to them.
I agree...no one can recount the multitude of sins except God himself, however he says they are now past as a stone cast into the sea;
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
God grants repentance to His sheep;
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God graces or gifts His sheep...a saving repentance unto life with saving faith.
You do not believe this...so of course you will struggle with it and claim a works gospel....which NO BIBLICAL Calvinist will ever believe or teach at all, that is not even suggested ....
DHK for you to say this..and I mean this very clearly as posted.....suggests the bigger question of are you saying this because you do not understand saving faith and repentance as Cals do?
You repeat over and over that you are not a Cal..[although if you look at your posts refuting our friend Winmans novelties you posting to him as if you are close to the cal position on several areas.]
What I am saying is......if you cannot agree on the ordo salutis You will never agree with any of us on this.
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Correct...only we understand that it was God working internally to cause and enable such a repenting and believing...
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
so is everyone...no exceptions:thumbsup:
If this was as outlined in Jn 3...by God given salvation sure. If you did this in the strength of the flesh...then you are not yet God's child
Agreed if it was all of God....if you are trusting in what you did [/B]...by yourself, this is not the biblical salvation.
No one in heaven will be boasting about...I DID this, I DID, that...it will be all about Jesus as author and finisher of our faith....
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
But Washer says, "Repent of your sins." That is not Biblical; it is a works salvation, something you do.[/QUOTE]
.
okay....
.
We do not agree on this
You have been shown this before DHK; The first sermon on the day of Pentecost uses the exact language;
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
DHK....I am having a hard time understanding some of your ideas.
Clarify for me....which sins do not have to be repented of? When Peter preached in Acts 2 where did he say repent of some sins for now...like an installment plan?
No...that is not possible to list each individual sin for a lifetime of sin.That being said....being convicted by the Spirit of being guilty of a multitude of sins I confessed my guilt before God of all known sin, all sins done in ignorance and asked for His mercy. That is how I confessed my past sins.
When I meet a person who I have known before God saved me...I will sometimes ask for forgiveness if at any time in the past I have sinned against them if I can remember or not...if I did...they will remember it so I make it part of my testimony to them.
I agree...no one can recount the multitude of sins except God himself, however he says they are now past as a stone cast into the sea;
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.
God grants repentance to His sheep;
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God graces or gifts His sheep...a saving repentance unto life with saving faith.
You do not believe this...so of course you will struggle with it and claim a works gospel....which NO BIBLICAL Calvinist will ever believe or teach at all, that is not even suggested ....
DHK for you to say this..and I mean this very clearly as posted.....suggests the bigger question of are you saying this because you do not understand saving faith and repentance as Cals do?
You repeat over and over that you are not a Cal..[although if you look at your posts refuting our friend Winmans novelties you posting to him as if you are close to the cal position on several areas.]
What I am saying is......if you cannot agree on the ordo salutis You will never agree with any of us on this.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Agreed it is a change of mind. but also a turning to God.
Correct...only we understand that it was God working internally to cause and enable such a repenting and believing...
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
so is everyone...no exceptions:thumbsup:
If this was as outlined in Jn 3...by God given salvation sure. If you did this in the strength of the flesh...then you are not yet God's child
Agreed if it was all of God....if you are trusting in what you did [/B]...by yourself, this is not the biblical salvation.
No one in heaven will be boasting about...I DID this, I DID, that...it will be all about Jesus as author and finisher of our faith....
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
But Washer says, "Repent of your sins." That is not Biblical; it is a works salvation, something you do.[/QUOTE]
I've got a question for Iconoclast;
Iconoclast, if you have repented of all known sins, do you ALWAYS drive at or below the posted speed limit? If not, then you have not repented of your sins according to your view. We are commanded to obey those in authority.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Now, I don't know of anybody who perfectly obeys the speed limits, because sometimes the speed limits are unreasonable, almost un-do-able at times. Nevertheless, as Christians we are commanded to obey the authorities, there are no loopholes.
If you can honestly say you keep the posted speed limits at all times you can claim you have repented of sin (at least this one kind of sin). If you cannot honestly say you keep the posted speed limit at all times, then you have not repented of your sins (in your view).
Iconoclast, if you have repented of all known sins, do you ALWAYS drive at or below the posted speed limit? If not, then you have not repented of your sins according to your view. We are commanded to obey those in authority.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Now, I don't know of anybody who perfectly obeys the speed limits, because sometimes the speed limits are unreasonable, almost un-do-able at times. Nevertheless, as Christians we are commanded to obey the authorities, there are no loopholes.
If you can honestly say you keep the posted speed limits at all times you can claim you have repented of sin (at least this one kind of sin). If you cannot honestly say you keep the posted speed limit at all times, then you have not repented of your sins (in your view).
We do repent of all known sins[in the past] and we are not to sin now....if I am a lawbreaker...I am subject to the laws penalty...a ticket, which I have been awarded upon occasion.......A Christian is to obey lawful human government.
All Christians sin Winman...we do not have an excuse to sin....that is why we are to MORTIFY sin. We would not be told to mortify sin if we did not have any.
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A ticket?
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
A ticket is the least of your worries if your view is correct.
Can you understand any verse on any topic.....I paid the ticket Winman,,,I submitted to the lawful authority. The fact that you look for absurdities shows your mindset...
The ticket is only when you got caught.
Are you saying this was the only time you have exceeded the speed limit?
Or do you do that on a regular basis?
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