Lordship Salvation

[Deacon]

... he did not tell us how obedient you must be to prove you are saved, or how disobedient you must be to prove you are not saved.

I mean, how often do you have to go to church to prove you are saved, three times a week, twice, once? Once a month? Once a year?

What can you watch on TV? Can you go to the movies?

If you drive over the speed limit, does that mean you are not saved?

Life sure gets hard when you believe in Lordship Salvation.

Winman's good a good point!

Lordship Salvation is a performance gospel.

“There is an inseparable relationship between obedience and faith—almost like two sides of a coin. It is impossible to detach one from the other, though many today are trying very hard to devise a doctrine of ‘faith’ that is disjointed from obedience.” John MacArthur, Keys to Spiritual Growth, revised and expanded edition. (Tarrytown, NY: Fleming H. Revell, 1991), 64–65.

“Those who turn away completely (not almost completely, or 90 percent, or 50 percent) demonstrate that they never had true faith.” ibid 191

So how much "good" is good enough for God?

“Where there are no works, we must assume no faith exists either.… No works, no faith. Real faith inevitably produces faith-works.” John F. MacArthur, Jr., The Gospel According to Jesus: What Does Jesus Mean When He Says, “Follow Me”? (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1989), 149

“Faith obeys. Unbelief rebels. The fruit of one’s life reveals whether that person is a believer or an unbeliever. There is no middle ground.” iIbid 178

So, how much do I need to do to be saved?

Rob

 

[Revmitchell]

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?


Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Deacon]

So Rev, do you preach good works to someone who needs salvation?

James is preaching to those already saved, who have already trusted their Messiah for salvation.

Salvation and good works are separated by the decision to trust in God.

The gospel is free, the works are an result of salvation and flow from it.

Rob

 

[Revmitchell]

So Rev, do you preach good works to someone who needs salvation?

James is preaching to those already saved, who have already trusted their Messiah for salvation.

Salvation and good works are separated by the decision to trust in God.

The gospel is free, the works are an result of salvation and flow from it.

Rob

That is right they flow from it. Those without works have nothing to flow from. Going into salvation one understands that their life will of necessity be different by choice.

This idea that salvation is wrapped up into someone wanting salvation from God is false. The rich young ruler wanted that much. The demons believe and are lost. The reason our churches are in such the sad state they are in is because we have torn down the gospel message to a five minute presentation offering a Savior but no Lord. It is half the gospel and is no gospel. Even Zachaeus understood that much.

 

[Winman]

None of this is relevant. LS does not deny any of this. Winman, I know you don't believe me, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Lordship Salvation teaches. This is glaringly obvious since you seem to think that what you've said here is contradictory to the LS position. Humble yourself, and seek to learn what is actually being taught. You said yourself that Piper's sermon had some good points. It was LS through and through.

But Lordship Salvation does deny that you have been saved the moment you trust Jesus. Lordship Salvation demands that you endure to the end to be saved.

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

According to John MacArthur you do not pass from death to life the instant you believe as Jesus said in John 5:24, but salvation comes from "a life lived in obedience and service to Christ". If this is so, no man could ever know he is saved until he endures to the end, if that.

The difference is this: Non-lordship salvation teaches that we should obey Jesus BECAUSE we are saved, where Lordship Salvation teaches you should obey Jesus TO be saved.

Now, they will deny that, but then they will contradict themselves and say if you are not being obedient, then obviously you are not saved. However, they will NEVER tell you how obedient you must be.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

As Christians we really have ONE BASIC RULE, and that is that we should "love one another". Love works no ill to his neighbor, therefore love fulfills the law.

But we do not do this to be saved, we do this because we are already saved (vs. 11).

 

[Rolfe]

I think I am beginning to regret asking my question publicly, though it was educational. I did not intend to start another argument.

I simply was looking for a simple, plain definition of Lordship Salvation. Thanks to everyone (well most everyone :laugh for the help.

 

[convicted1]

I would think that LS, in a nutshell, would be dying to self....submitting our will to His....

 

[quantumfaith]

I think I am beginning to regret asking my question publicly, though it was educational. I did not intend to start another argument.

I simply was looking for a simple, plain definition of Lordship Salvation. Thanks to everyone (well most everyone :laugh for the help.

LS, simply another "tension" in scripture that will never be resolved in the evangelical community on "this side of eternity".

 

[Revmitchell]

"The Old Cross and the New"

"From this new cross has sprung a new philosophy of the Christian life; and from that new philosophy has come a new evangelical technique -- a new type of meeting and new type of preaching. This new evangelism employs the same language as of the old, but its content is not the same and the emphasis not as before.

"The new cross encourages a new and entirely different evangelistic approach. The evangelist does not demand abnegation of the old life before a new life can be received. He preaches not contrasts but similarities. He seeks to key into the public view the same thing the world does, only a higher level. Whatever the sin-mad world happens to be clamoring after at the moment is cleverly shown to be the very thing the gospel offers, only the religious product is better.

"The new cross does not slay the sinner; it re-directs him. It gears him to a cleaner and jollier way of living, and saves his self-respect...The Christian message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue in order to make it acceptable to the public.

"The philosophy back of this kind of thing may be sincere, but its sincerity does not save it from being false. It is false because it is blind. It misses completely the whole meaning of the cross. The old cross is a symbol of DEATH. It stands for the abrupt, violent end of a human being. The man in Roman times who took the cross and started down the road has already said goodbye to his friends. He was not coming back. He was not going out to have his life re-directed; he was going out to have it ended. The cross made no compromise; modified nothing; spared nothing. It slew all of the man completely, and for good. It did not try to keep on good terms with the victim. It struck cruel and hard, and when it had finished its work, the man was no more.

"The race of Adam is under the death sentence. There is no commutation and no escape. God cannot approve any fruits of sin, however innocent they may appear, or beautiful to the eyes of men. God salvages the individual by liquidating him, and then raising him again to newness of life.

"That evangelism which draws friendly parallels between the ways of God and the ways of men is false to the Bible and cruel to the souls of its hearers. The faith of Christ does not parallel the world; it intersects it. In coming to Christ we do not bring our old life to a higher plane; we leave it at the cross....

"We, who preach the gospel, must not think of ourselves as public relations agents sent to establish good will between Christ and the world. We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, or the world of sports, or modern entertainment. We are not diplomats, but prophets; and our message is not a compromise, but an ultimatum."

A. W. Tozer~The Biblical Evangelist, November 1, 1991, p. 11.

 

[evangelist6589]

Mac does not teach works based salvation as you claim he does. If you want to quote Hard to Believe then buy the book and read it in full as I did, or start a thread on that book.

Faith is not just an intellectual assent of the facts. Faith leads to repentance and of which has deeds that prove that faith is real. No one is saved by their works, but they do show evidence of a true conversion. Just look at what the Bible teaches on this subject.

Acts 26:20b(NIV,1984)
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Also it is God whom grants repentance.

Acts 11:18b (NIV,1984)
So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.

But Lordship Salvation does deny that you have been saved the moment you trust Jesus. Lordship Salvation demands that you endure to the end to be saved.



According to John MacArthur you do not pass from death to life the instant you believe as Jesus said in John 5:24, but salvation comes from "a life lived in obedience and service to Christ". If this is so, no man could ever know he is saved until he endures to the end, if that.

The difference is this: Non-lordship salvation teaches that we should obey Jesus BECAUSE we are saved, where Lordship Salvation teaches you should obey Jesus TO be saved.

Now, they will deny that, but then they will contradict themselves and say if you are not being obedient, then obviously you are not saved. However, they will NEVER tell you how obedient you must be.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

As Christians we really have ONE BASIC RULE, and that is that we should "love one another". Love works no ill to his neighbor, therefore love fulfills the law.

But we do not do this to be saved, we do this because we are already saved (vs. 11).

 

[Winman]

Mac does not teach works based salvation as you claim he does. If you want to quote Hard to Believe then buy the book and read it in full as I did, or start a thread on that book.

Faith is not just an intellectual assent of the facts. Faith leads to repentance and of which has deeds that prove that faith is real. No one is saved by their works, but they do show evidence of a true conversion. Just look at what the Bible teaches on this subject.

Acts 26:20b(NIV,1984)
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Also it is God whom grants repentance.

Acts 11:18b (NIV,1984)
So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.

Don't tell me what I can post on or not, who are you?

I should tell you to post only when you know what you are talking about, but you would never be able to post again.

 

[evangelist6589]

Don't tell me what I can post on or not, who are you?

I should tell you to post only when you know what you are talking about, but you would never be able to post again.

Why did you avoid my argument? Maybe those verses hit a nerve.

 

[Aaron]

Would someone define Lordship Salvation in one sentence?

Salvation by obedience.

Wait. That's not a sentence.

What is commonly called Lordship Salvation is the idea that one is saved by obedience.

 

[evangelist6589]

Salvation by obedience.

Wait. That's not a sentence.

What is commonly called Lordship Salvation is the idea that one is saved by obedience.

False.

Acts 26:20b(NIV,1984)
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Also it is God whom grants repentance.

Acts 11:18b (NIV,1984)
So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.

 

[Revmitchell]

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[Winman]

Why did you avoid my argument? Maybe those verses hit a nerve.

Posting two verses is not an argument. Those verses are quite different in my KJB as well.

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

OK, it is not explained here exactly what Paul means by doing works meet for repentance. But this is similar to when John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Sadducees to bring forth fruit meet for repentance in Mat 3:8;

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Was John the Baptist telling the Pharisees and Sadducees to turn from sins here? NO, he told them to turn from thinking within themselves that they have Abraham for their father.

In other words, they needed to turn or repent from the false belief that they were going to heaven simply because they were the physical descendants of Abraham. You cannot inherit salvation from your parents or because you were a Jew as many falsely believed.

So, it is not saying you have to stop sinning to be saved, no one ever completely stops sinning.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

You totally misinterpret this verse, this verse is simply saying that God had sent Peter to preach to the Gentiles, in this case Cornelius. Before this, Jesus and his disciples only preached to the house of Israel.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, you completely misinterpret scripture.

 

[DHK]

You misquoted the part about repentance. You left out "in the heart" changing it from a description of repentance into works. And you misrepresented it as the article shows your 2,3, and 4th point flow from salvation, whereas you insinuated that LS teaches those are the basis of salvation.

I didn't deliberately leave out any words. I condensed a lengthy passage into a shorter one for brevity's sake. Your accusation is about as frivolous
as accusing Paul as leaving out "in your heart" in Romans 10:13,
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,"
When he includes the phrase "in your heart" in Rom.10:9"
--I guess he disobeyed God; did spite unto the Holy Spirit, eh?
--Lordship salvation is based on works as that quote shows. It includes the things listed in that quote, according to that definition, and therefore is based on works and not faith alone.

I have said no such thing. I firmly believe in salvation totally apart from works. Please stop lying and misrepresenting me. Deal honestly with the issue. We can disagree without lying about each other I hope.

Please debate this issue without offense. I am not making anything personal. When I said, "You believe salvation is by works..." the only intent is "you" by your agreement with the article in which you are defending. It is the article that I am debating which you are representing. My comments are actually made in reference to the article. I don't even know your personal beliefs.

Eh. Good enough. Though I worry that you first say no repentance is not needed, but then end up basically affirming yes it is.

Yes, I always define repentance as the flip side of faith. If one has faith in Christ (faith must have an object), then he has repented at the same time. His life will change. It must. He is putting his faith in Christ as Lord, rather than allowing sin to be his lord. How can it not change?
I would rather not use repentance because there is so much confusion about the word and it becomes an issue of works, such as the Church of Christ uses it. If you say "Repent of all your sins" (as many do), that is unbiblical, and impossible. No one can even remember all their sins much less repent of them. That feat is a work.

Are the two, justification and sanctification, not related? Doesn't justification always lead to sanctification? The only red-herring here is your question/statement, bolded above, as you know that is not what LS teaches.

True, justification leads to sanctification, but that is not what LS teaches.
The only true example of Lordship salvation that I know is the Apostle Paul. Upon salvation, calling Christ Lord, he immediately said "Lord what will you have me to do?" And obeyed the Lord, was baptized, and a few days later was found preaching boldly, in public. That is an example of Lordship salvation. I don't know of any others. His salvation was unique and different from all others.

and actually yes salvation, the full scope of it not simply justification, is a process. According to scripture I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. But that's another topic...

We are not speaking of the "process." That is a red herring. We are speaking of the event. No need to mix up theology. If you want to speak precisely about justification we can do that. The process of sanctification and of discipleship do not take place at the time of justification as Washer and MacArthur and others insist they must.

I am responding to your post. You listed those 4 points saying that they teach works salvation, thereby implying that you disagree with them. If you disagree "that progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow" (your own statement #3) salvation, then my question is perfectly reasonable. Now you are back tracking. So which is, does sanctification necessarily follow justification or not? Can a person claim Christ all their life then repudiate the gospel and be saved?

I realize what you are responding to. However, I have clearly maintained and repeated often that sanctification always follows salvation. It is simply a growing process. That is what LS leaves no room for. I don't believe I am back-tracking in saying that. Yes sanctification follows salvation (progressively) and is only part of salvation, positionally. The LS advocates put it as part and parcel of salvation--set apart, ready to do God's work immediately. They aren't ready. They need to grow.

Have you ever read any Calvinist explaining what perseverance of the saints means? Saying that the elect will persevere is simply saying that none will fall away. None will leave the faith, they will continue in faith until death. It has nothing at all to do with doing works in order to maintain your salvation.

Yes I have and it is a self-defeating argument.

 

[kyredneck]

Salvation by obedience.

Wait. That's not a sentence.

What is commonly called Lordship Salvation is the idea that one is saved by obedience.

That idea is correct as long as eternal consequences are not what is intended by 'saved'.

It is only by obedience that we are saved 'temporally', i.e. to enter into the Sabbath rest of God.

But we were made alive and given the free gift of eternal life apart from obedience. Man is totally passive in the birth from above.

 

[Iconoclast]

If one were to filter through all the mumbo-jumbo, would it be safe to say that Lordship Salvation basically can be defined as acting like a Christian after salvation?

Yes exactly......
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

I think I am beginning to regret asking my question publicly, though it was educational. I did not intend to start another argument.

I simply was looking for a simple, plain definition of Lordship Salvation. Thanks to everyone (well most everyone ) for the help

There are one or two on every thread who try and kill the thread....just learn to ignore their disruption and the others will offer helpful teaching.

 

[Aaron]

But we were made alive and given the free gift of eternal life apart from obedience. Man is totally passive in the birth from above.

:thumbs:

Jesus IS Lord, whether a man confesses Him or not. He is Lord of the believers and unbelievers alike. No man "makes" Him Lord. He IS Lord.