Lordship Salvation

[Luke2427]

It was alright, he made some good points.

Nevertheless, he did not tell us how obedient you must be to prove you are saved, or how disobedient you must be to prove you are not saved.

I mean, how often do you have to go to church to prove you are saved, three times a week, twice, once? Once a month? Once a year?

What can you watch on TV? Can you go to the movies?

If you drive over the speed limit, does that mean you are not saved?

Life sure gets hard when you believe in Lordship Salvation.

I don't think the second stupidest man on the planet thinks that that is how lorshippers believe.

 

[jbh28]

It is you then that does not understand Lordship Salvation, Lordship Salvation is founded upon obedience. If you are not obedient, then Jesus is not your Lord.

That's true and if Jesus is not your Lord then you are not saved. (Romans 10:9). However, one does not have to be obedient in order to be saved, obedience comes from a heart where Jesus is Lord, not the other way around. So, you don't have to have any amount of obedience in order to be saved.

 

[jbh28]

The position that:
1. involves a turning from sin as a part of faith.

Repentance

2. a submissive commitment to obey Christ as Lord.

Romans 10:9

3. That progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow.

2 Corinthians 3:18 - evidence that we have a new nature

4. Perseverance of the saints is a requirement.

Yes, those that God saves, he keeps

This is works salvation; not by grace through faith. It is entirely against what the Bible teaches.
When one expounds Eph.2:8-10, we find that in verse 10 it is the believer that is ordained to good works, not the unbeliever. Salvation must come first.

Again, no one teaches that good works comes before salvation.

 

[jbh28]

It was alright, he made some good points.

Nevertheless, he did not tell us how obedient you must be to prove you are saved, or how disobedient you must be to prove you are not saved.

I mean, how often do you have to go to church to prove you are saved, three times a week, twice, once? Once a month? Once a year?

What can you watch on TV? Can you go to the movies?

If you drive over the speed limit, does that mean you are not saved?

Life sure gets hard when you believe in Lordship Salvation.

Growth. As I said before, you don't have to have any obedience in order to be saved. After you are saved, there isn't any amount of anything you can do to keep it. God promised to keep you. How much do you have to have in order to prove? Growth. It's not an amount. 2 Corinthians 3:18 God is transforming us. We don't all grow at the same rate, but we grow.

 

[Winman]

That's true and if Jesus is not your Lord then you are not saved. (Romans 10:9). However, one does not have to be obedient in order to be saved, obedience comes from a heart where Jesus is Lord, not the other way around. So, you don't have to have any amount of obedience in order to be saved.

None of this makes sense if Calvinism is true. If Calvinism is true, the unregenerate man cannot be obedient, so it doesn't make much sense for guys like John Piper to preach to folks that if they are not being obedient to God then that is pretty good evidence they are not regenerate. Suppose that is true, what could they do about it? NOTHING. If Calvinism is true, these unregenerate persons are unable to even desire to be obedient, even if they hear preaching on it. So it is a waste of time to preach obedience to unregenerate men in Calvinism.

And if they are regenerate, then their obedience is meaningless, they are saved no matter what. So again, it is an unnecessary waste of time to preach obedience to a regenerate person in Calvinism, they cannot be lost.

So, for a Calvinist preacher to preach on obedience like Piper and MacArthur do is nonsensical and not needed.

 

[Winman]

Growth. As I said before, you don't have to have any obedience in order to be saved. After you are saved, there isn't any amount of anything you can do to keep it. God promised to keep you. How much do you have to have in order to prove? Growth. It's not an amount. 2 Corinthians 3:18 God is transforming us. We don't all grow at the same rate, but we grow.

But that is not how Lordship Salvation preachers preach. They preach that if you are not obedient, then you are probably not saved.

OK, let's say that is perfectly accurate, they are not saved. What are they going to do about it? NOTHING. In Calvinism all men are completely helpless. If God regenerates them that is fantastic, but if he chooses to pass them by no amount of preaching will change that.

I've heard quite a few Lordship Salvation preachers, and they do not preach growth, they preach that if you are not obedient, you are probably LOST.

 

[Revmitchell]

But that is not how Lordship Salvation preachers preach. They preach that if you are not obedient, then you are probably not saved.

You need to stop acting like you know anything about LS or those who preach it.

 

[RLBosley]

What have I misquoted. I summarized the first part of it. There is not room for the entire article, obviously.

You misquoted the part about repentance. You left out "in the heart" changing it from a description of repentance into works. And you misrepresented it as the article shows your 2,3, and 4th point flow from salvation, whereas you insinuated that LS teaches those are the basis of salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
--Salvation is said to be by faith. I can give you dozens of Scripture that say that salvation is by faith. But you say it is by works, the above works.

I have said no such thing. I firmly believe in salvation totally apart from works. Please stop lying and misrepresenting me. Deal honestly with the issue. We can disagree without lying about each other I hope.

No, it is by faith. Having said that "repentance" is the flip side of faith. If one puts their faith in Christ, then Christ will become the object of their faith and not the world. They will have a change of mind. Biblical faith includes repentance.

Eh. Good enough. Though I worry that you first say no repentance is not needed, but then end up basically affirming yes it is.

You are asking the wrong questions.
The proper question is: What is salvation?
What is sanctification?
The two are not the same. Salvation is not a process. It takes place at a point in time. I can remember the time and place (when and where) I was saved. At that point, during that minute, my "entire life" was not contained. I am still alive to this day. Your question is simply a red herring.
More germane to Lordship salvation is: do you have to live your life in complete obedience in order to maintain your salvation. The answer seems to be yes. That is a works-based salvation and infers you can lose your salvation.

Are the two, justification and sanctification, not related? Doesn't justification always lead to sanctification? The only red-herring here is your question/statement, bolded above, as you know that is not what LS teaches.

and actually yes salvation, the full scope of it not simply justification, is a process. According to scripture I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. But that's another topic...

You are the one making these things up and saying them; not me.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves."
Sanctification follows salvation. I made that perfectly clear from my very first post.

I am responding to your post. You listed those 4 points saying that they teach works salvation, thereby implying that you disagree with them. If you disagree "that progressive sanctification and perseverance must follow" (your own statement #3) salvation, then my question is perfectly reasonable. Now you are back tracking. So which is, does sanctification necessarily follow justification or not? Can a person claim Christ all their life then repudiate the gospel and be saved?

I believe in eternal security. I believe that the Lord will preserve me. I don't believe I have to do the persevering.

Have you ever read any Calvinist explaining what perseverance of the saints means? Saying that the elect will persevere is simply saying that none will fall away. None will leave the faith, they will continue in faith until death. It has nothing at all to do with doing works in order to maintain your salvation.

The article itself incorporates things one must do in order to be saved.
That is the essence of Lordship salvation. It incorporates discipleship, sanctification and salvation into one big ball. That is error.

No it doesn't. You misunderstand.

 

[RLBosley]

It was alright, he made some good points.

Nevertheless, he did not tell us how obedient you must be to prove you are saved, or how disobedient you must be to prove you are not saved.

I mean, how often do you have to go to church to prove you are saved, three times a week, twice, once? Once a month? Once a year?

What can you watch on TV? Can you go to the movies?

If you drive over the speed limit, does that mean you are not saved?

Life sure gets hard when you believe in Lordship Salvation.

You aren't actually interested in real discussion. That's clear. I'm done trying to discuss something this serious with the irrational.

 

[Iconoclast]

You aren't actually interested in real discussion. That's clear. I'm done trying to discuss something this serious with the irrational.

Bingo:thumbsup::thumbsup::laugh::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

RLBosley

You misquoted the part about repentance. You left out "in the heart" changing it from a description of repentance into works. And you misrepresented it as the article shows your 2,3, and 4th point flow from salvation, whereas you insinuated that LS teaches those are the basis of salvation.

Yes...good catch...part of his M.O.

I have said no such thing. I firmly believe in salvation totally apart from works. Please stop lying and misrepresenting me. Deal honestly with the issue. We can disagree without lying about each other I hope.

yes....this should not happen at all.


Eh. Good enough. Though I worry that you first say no repentance is not needed, but then end up basically affirming yes it is.



Are the two, justification and sanctification, not related? Doesn't justification always lead to sanctification?

The only red-herring here is your question/statement, bolded above, as you know that is not what LS teaches

.
yes...:laugh:


[
and actually yes salvation, the full scope of it not simply justification, is a process. According to scripture I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. But that's another topic...

Have you ever read any Calvinist explaining what perseverance of the saints means? Saying that the elect will persevere is simply saying that non will fall away. None will leave the faith, they will continue in faith until death. It has nothing at all to do with doing works in order to maintain your salvation.

that would be helpful

 

[Winman]

You need to stop acting like you know anything about LS or those who preach it.

And I could say the same to you. Who are you? What makes you such an authority on Lordship Salvation?

Explain Lordship Salvation so that everyone can plainly understand it if you are such the expert. How obedient do you have to be to be saved? Or how disobedient do you have to be to prove you are lost?

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

And I could say the same to you. Who are you? What makes you such an authority on Lordship Salvation?

He is onto you TK...everyone is...he just cannot take your agenda...from thread to thread, day after day....all see it now:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

You aren't actually interested in real discussion. That's clear. I'm done trying to discuss something this serious with the irrational.

Salvation is a gift, all you have to do is receive it. You don't have to work for it, you don't have to promise to be obedient to receive it. That would not be a gift.

Salvation is not a bargain or deal you make with God, I will obey you if you save me. That would not be a gift, that would be earning your salvation through obedience.

 

[Winman]

Winman

He is onto you TK...everyone is...he just cannot take your agenda...from thread to thread, day after day....all see it now:thumbsup:

Another one of your brilliant arguments. :laugh:

 

[RLBosley]

Salvation is a gift, all you have to do is receive it. You don't have to work for it, you don't have to promise to be obedient to receive it. That would not be a gift.

Salvation is not a bargain or deal you make with God, I will obey you if you save me. That would not be a gift, that would be earning your salvation through obedience.

All true. Also irrelevant.

 

[Winman]

All true. Also irrelevant.

It's completely relevant, you don't have to promise to be good to receive a gift.

You are saved the MOMENT you receive and believe on Jesus, you have passed from death to life, you don't have to obey to be saved SOMEDAY.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[RLBosley]

It's completely relevant, you don't have to promise to be good to receive a gift.

You are saved the MOMENT you receive and believe on Jesus, you have passed from death to life, you don't have to obey to be saved SOMEDAY.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

None of this is relevant. LS does not deny any of this. Winman, I know you don't believe me, but you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Lordship Salvation teaches. This is glaringly obvious since you seem to think that what you've said here is contradictory to the LS position. Humble yourself, and seek to learn what is actually being taught. You said yourself that Piper's sermon had some good points. It was LS through and through.

 

[Revmitchell]

And I could say the same to you. Who are you? What makes you such an authority on Lordship Salvation?

Well it is a theological position I hold too.

Explain Lordship Salvation so that everyone can plainly understand it if you are such the expert. How obedient do you have to be to be saved? Or how disobedient do you have to be to prove you are lost?

The fact that you even ask this means you either do not understand it or you are just trying too misrepresent it. Such a question should never be asked in trying to explain it. It is irrelevant.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well it is a theological position I hold too.



The fact that you even ask this means you either do not understand it or you are just trying too misrepresent it. Such a question should never be asked in trying to explain it. It is irrelevant.

Now that clears up everything