Luke 16: the rich man in hades; the poor man with Abraham

[percho]

When John speaks of Christ being in the “bosom” of the Father, he is making a statement of equality between the Son and the Father. The first chapter of John is all about establishing the truth that Jesus is God and that God exists as One God but separate persons.

So, it does not convey the same contextual meaning in Luke and John.

Being “in” Christ has several meanings, I suppose, in context. mostly to relationship, ownership, subservient to or subject to or benefiting from….,and such. Never equality with Christ.

Concerning “Abraham’s bosom” referring to heaven. This is a Jewish culture reference. Everyone is Jewish in this passage. How would they understand that phrase. We cannot interpret the passage with a modern, western civilization idea of what “Abraham’s bosom” means.

peace to you

I was going to cry, UNCLE, however I think I will take one more shot.

And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruit of those sleeping he became, for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end,

Order
1 Christ
2 Christ's in his presence Rev 20 says they will reign with Christ 1000 years and the rest of the dead do not live until after 1000 years
3 the end ? of rising out of the dead? After the 1000 the sea gave up the dead, death and Hades gave up the dead.

Luke 16:30,31 and he said, No, father Abraham, but if any one from the dead may go unto them, they will reform. And he said to him, If Moses and the prophets they do not hear, neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.'

Questions.
To date, who, has been raised out of the dead who could go to them? Did he train others for that very purpose of being the witness of him having been raised out of the dead?
Form the above order, of which will Abraham be of?
From the above order of which will Lazarus be of?
From the above order of which will the rich man be of?

And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:50-55 YLT

When their order comes from whence will they be raised from? Hades? Out of Death?

'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; Matt 16:18-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------death into Hades shall not prevail.

When does the gates of Hades not prevail over Christ's? In his presence? At the last trump? 1 Thes 4:16 YLT because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

 

[canadyjd]

I was going to cry, UNCLE, however I think I will take one more shot.

And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruit of those sleeping he became, for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end,

Order
1 Christ
2 Christ's in his presence Rev 20 says they will reign with Christ 1000 years and the rest of the dead do not live until after 1000 years
3 the end ? of rising out of the dead? After the 1000 the sea gave up the dead, death and Hades gave up the dead.

Luke 16:30,31 and he said, No, father Abraham, but if any one from the dead may go unto them, they will reform. And he said to him, If Moses and the prophets they do not hear, neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.'

Questions.
To date, who, has been raised out of the dead who could go to them? Did he train others for that very purpose of being the witness of him having been raised out of the dead?
Form the above order, of which will Abraham be of?
From the above order of which will Lazarus be of?
From the above order of which will the rich man be of?

And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:50-55 YLT

When their order comes from whence will they be raised from? Hades? Out of Death?

'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; Matt 16:18-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------death into Hades shall not prevail.

When does the gates of Hades not prevail over Christ's? In his presence? At the last trump? 1 Thes 4:16 YLT because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

Not sure which translation you are using but the phrasing is unfamiliar to me.

Last point first. Just recently there was a thread about the “gates of hell”. Someone (RevMitchel?) noted in the area where Jesus was speaking was a system of caves the locals referred to as the “gates of hell”. Pagans conducted all sorts of rituals there and it was widely believed to contain “portals or gates” to the underworld where spirits could be summoned. Jesus was likely referring to these caves in His remarks.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I was going to cry, UNCLE, however I think I will take one more shot.

And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruit of those sleeping he became, for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end,

Order
1 Christ
2 Christ's in his presence Rev 20 says they will reign with Christ 1000 years and the rest of the dead do not live until after 1000 years
3 the end ? of rising out of the dead? After the 1000 the sea gave up the dead, death and Hades gave up the dead.

Luke 16:30,31 and he said, No, father Abraham, but if any one from the dead may go unto them, they will reform. And he said to him, If Moses and the prophets they do not hear, neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.'

Questions.
To date, who, has been raised out of the dead who could go to them? Did he train others for that very purpose of being the witness of him having been raised out of the dead?
Form the above order, of which will Abraham be of?
From the above order of which will Lazarus be of?
From the above order of which will the rich man be of?

And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;
where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' 1 Cor 15:50-55 YLT

When their order comes from whence will they be raised from? Hades? Out of Death?

'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; Matt 16:18-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------death into Hades shall not prevail.

When does the gates of Hades not prevail over Christ's? In his presence? At the last trump? 1 Thes 4:16 YLT because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

Luke 16:30-31 is referring to Jesus being raised from the dead, and still many will not believe.

That is also the answer to your question “who” was raised from the dead.

I perceive you believe you have gained some insight into scripture and I’m not seeing the same thing. I’m not trying to discourage you and I enjoy the conversation.

Peace to you

 

[percho]

Not sure which translation you are using but the phrasing is unfamiliar to me.

Last point first. Just recently there was a thread about the “gates of hell”. Someone (RevMitchel?) noted in the area where Jesus was speaking was a system of caves the locals referred to as the “gates of hell”. Pagans conducted all sorts of rituals there and it was widely believed to contain “portals or gates” to the underworld where spirits could be summoned. Jesus was likely referring to these caves in His remarks.

peace to you

Use any translation you like as long as it translates ᾅδη, as Hades.

Acts 2:31 NKJV “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Was his soul not being left in Hades relative to his resurrection?
Was his soul resurrected from Hades?

By what means do you think and or believe the soul of Jesus found itself in Hades?

 

[George Antonios]

Obviously this is a unique passage of scripture; the only one that describes the immediate fate of the dead. Many Christians do not believe it is literal, but they can't give a satisfactory answer as to why Jesus would tell of such a horrible fate for the unrepentant if it is not true as he said. And I can't see any other reason but to install a great fear. But would Jesus install a great fear of something that happens to no one? Maybe you have an attic ladder and can tell your children if they have any ideas about climbing it into the attic that the boogeyman up there will take them, but would it be right to tell them any such thing?

One thing I definitely don't buy is that, in the times I've heard a speaker preach about this, he has always put up a 'disclaimer' that he doesn't want to preach on it, and usually goes further than that and says he'd rather preach about "anything else" than that subject. It makes for a lot of sermons for one that none wants to preach. But the really hard-to-believe part is they always (as far as I can recall) say they're "not trying to scare anybody." I will put it plain and say I think they're lying. Whether literally true or not, what is the purpose of proclaiming this? One guy said "I'm not trying to scare you-- I'm just trying to let you know you're gonna die and go to one of two places!" What a difference! -- irony meant not between the two places, but between scaring and letting the hearer know.

Anyway, here are some observations I have developed over the years about this:

Neither God nor the devil is mentioned.

The poor man, Lazarus, was said to be taken by the angels; burial is not mentioned.

The rich man was buried, then lifted his eyes from Hades.

Abraham gives no reason for their different fates other than one was rich (and implicitly greedy), and one was poor (and implicitly spent his time begging).

Abraham seemed to be 'in charge' of what happens and what doesn't.

The rich man has no hope, yet he is concerned about those close to him on earth who are most likely headed to where he is. There is silence as to whether Lazarus had such concern for anyone-- or what he thought about anything.

The big irony (to me): Abraham was a rich man, or at least he came to be, who had many "good things" in the world, but that is his explanation to the rich man of why he is in torment.

Questions:
Can anyone be rich, per se, and expect to enter life? Remember not only the "easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle" precept, but also how "rich" and "poor" are relative, and the average American in the USA is rich compared to a clear majority of the world population.

Is it valid and acceptable to God for a Christian to put a lot of money into retirement accounts instead of giving all that same money to 'the poor?'

If we are 'paradise-bound,' will we be carried by angels and comforted by Abraham? Or has he been superseded in that job?

Is going to paradise literal, is torment in hades literal, or is one or the the other literal?

Finally, if Luke 16:19-31 is not literal, what is the meaning or it all? Why did Jesus tell such a story?

The word is "hell". Carry on.

 

[George Antonios]

though the rich man could apparently “see” heaven

Abraham's bosom is not heaven. They were both underground.

 

[canadyjd]

Use any translation you like as long as it translates ᾅδη, as Hades.

Acts 2:31 NKJV “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Was his soul not being left in Hades relative to his resurrection?
Was his soul resurrected from Hades?

By what means do you think and or believe the soul of Jesus found itself in Hades?

In no way, shape, or form did Jesus ever go to hell.

Peter is quoting a psalm in which he is speaking of the Messiah. Unlike others, His soul will not be left in hell. Not that He went to hell and was retrieved from hell. His fate is not hell. Unlike others, His flesh will not rot in a grave. It speaks to His resurrection and the importance that event has in understanding our relationship with God.

peace to you

 

[37818]

In no way, shape, or form did Jesus ever go to hell.

Peter is quoting a psalm in which he is speaking of the Messiah. Unlike others, His soul will not be left in hell. Not that He went to hell and was retrieved from hell. His fate is not hell. Unlike others, His flesh will not rot in a grave. It speaks to His resurrection and the importance that event has in understanding our relationship with God.

So you do not acknowledge Paradise as the upper place in Sheol/Hades Luke 16:19-31, Deuteronomy 32:22.

 

[canadyjd]

So you do not acknowledge Paradise as the upper place in Sheol/Hades Luke 16:19-31, Deuteronomy 32:22.

Paradise is another term for heaven.

The use of “Sheol” in the OT was usually simply the grave. They did not have a very deep understanding of “hell”. Certainly not what you have described.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Paradise is another term for heaven.

After Christ's ascension. Prior to that Jesus said to the believing thief, Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Now Jesus was not going to Heaven to be mediator for 40 days from the day of His resurrection. As I understand.​

 

[canadyjd]

After Christ's ascension. Prior to that Jesus said to the believing thief, Luke 23:43, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Now Jesus was not going to Heaven to be mediator for 40 days from the day of His resurrection. As I understand.​

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

In Luke 23:46 Jesus said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”. The Spirit of Jesus went to heaven at His death.

When Jesus was absent from His body, He was in heaven; just without His physical body. As was the thief. He was absent from his body, but in heaven, with the Lord, as Jesus promised. As the saints that had been martyred are in heaven asking how long must they wait..

When He was resurrected, His Spirit was returned to His glorified body, now resurrected.

peace to you

 

[Alcott]

The word is "hell". Carry on.

What word?

 

[37818]

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

In Luke 23:46 Jesus said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”. The Spirit of Jesus went to heaven at His death.

When Jesus was absent from His body, He was in heaven; just without His physical body. As was the thief. He was absent from his body, but in heaven, with the Lord, as Jesus promised. As the saints that had been martyred are in heaven asking how long must they wait..

When He was resurrected, His Spirit was returned to His glorified body, now resurrected.

peace to you

Ok, as you understand the truth. How is it I understand it as I had explained? Brother, we do not agree. According to Hebrews 9:12, Jesus entered Heaven once for all until His second appearing.

 

[George Antonios]

What word?

"Hades"

 

[canadyjd]

Ok, as you understand the truth. How is it I understand it as I had explained? Brother, we do not agree. According to Hebrews 9:12, Jesus entered Heaven once for all until His second appearing.

How we understand passages of scripture is based on how we approach scripture.

Most, I think, approach scripture primarily based on our own experiences and in ignorance of the context of the times. We come 2000 years and an entirely different culture removed from these words.

I attempt to understand scripture based on how the intended readers of that day would have understood the words.

As an example, in Philippians we have the phrase “He who began a good work in (among) you will complete it”. (Or words to that effect)

Most take that to refer to sanctification, that something is happening “inside” the believer. The word “you” is plural and is sometimes translated as “you all”, but is still believed to something internal among believers. The word “in” should be translated “among”, based on the context.

Philippians was a civil war city, home to a decisive battle (also called a “work”) for Octavius who would later become Emperor Augustus. There were two major battles, or works, the first battle resulted in Octavius in retreat. He regrouped and countered attacked Brutus’s forces who had let down their guard to gather the spoils.

Octavius won the 2nd battle and the war. There was a saying around that event, “complete the once begun work”.

Paul is making a play on words from that well known saying “complete the once begun work”. The “work” is that God will complete is proclaiming the gospel in the midst of persecution, not internal sanctification among believers. Standing fast in proclaiming the gospel in the midst of persecution is a major theme in Philippians.

So, knowing the background and culture is very important in understanding scripture and can disagree French explain why brothers in Christ understand scripture in very different ways.

peace to you

 

[Alcott]

"Hades"

I don't know your purpose here. Hades [Greek] or hell [Germanic].

 

[percho]

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

In Luke 23:46 Jesus said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”. The Spirit of Jesus went to heaven at His death.

When Jesus was absent from His body, He was in heaven; just without His physical body. As was the thief. He was absent from his body, but in heaven, with the Lord, as Jesus promised. As the saints that had been martyred are in heaven asking how long must they wait..

When He was resurrected, His Spirit was returned to His glorified body, now resurrected.

peace to you

“Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”

I have a question or two concerning that statement.

What do you believe Jesus meant by saying that?

How would you believe that statement in relative to the following?
1. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Heb 5:5
2. Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), Gal 1:1
3. Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears; (and having been heard because of his piety Heb 5:7 Darby because it shows the genitive (out of death)

Was Jesus having conversations with the Father while Jesus was dead?

 

[FollowTheWay]

Obviously this is a unique passage of scripture; the only one that describes the immediate fate of the dead. Many Christians do not believe it is literal, but they can't give a satisfactory answer as to why Jesus would tell of such a horrible fate for the unrepentant if it is not true as he said. And I can't see any other reason but to install a great fear. But would Jesus install a great fear of something that happens to no one? Maybe you have an attic ladder and can tell your children if they have any ideas about climbing it into the attic that the boogeyman up there will take them, but would it be right to tell them any such thing?

One thing I definitely don't buy is that, in the times I've heard a speaker preach about this, he has always put up a 'disclaimer' that he doesn't want to preach on it, and usually goes further than that and says he'd rather preach about "anything else" than that subject. It makes for a lot of sermons for one that none wants to preach. But the really hard-to-believe part is they always (as far as I can recall) say they're "not trying to scare anybody." I will put it plain and say I think they're lying. Whether literally true or not, what is the purpose of proclaiming this? One guy said "I'm not trying to scare you-- I'm just trying to let you know you're gonna die and go to one of two places!" What a difference! -- irony meant not between the two places, but between scaring and letting the hearer know.

Anyway, here are some observations I have developed over the years about this:

Neither God nor the devil is mentioned.

The poor man, Lazarus, was said to be taken by the angels; burial is not mentioned.

The rich man was buried, then lifted his eyes from Hades.

Abraham gives no reason for their different fates other than one was rich (and implicitly greedy), and one was poor (and implicitly spent his time begging).

Abraham seemed to be 'in charge' of what happens and what doesn't.

The rich man has no hope, yet he is concerned about those close to him on earth who are most likely headed to where he is. There is silence as to whether Lazarus had such concern for anyone-- or what he thought about anything.

The big irony (to me): Abraham was a rich man, or at least he came to be, who had many "good things" in the world, but that is his explanation to the rich man of why he is in torment.

Questions:
Can anyone be rich, per se, and expect to enter life? Remember not only the "easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle" precept, but also how "rich" and "poor" are relative, and the average American in the USA is rich compared to a clear majority of the world population.

Is it valid and acceptable to God for a Christian to put a lot of money into retirement accounts instead of giving all that same money to 'the poor?'

If we are 'paradise-bound,' will we be carried by angels and comforted by Abraham? Or has he been superseded in that job?

Is going to paradise literal, is torment in hades literal, or is one or the the other literal?

Finally, if Luke 16:19-31 is not literal, what is the meaning or it all? Why did Jesus tell such a story?

The amount of money you have is not the important thing. The important thing is who or what controls your life. If you are wealthy but Jesus is in control you will be led by Him to do things which glorify God with your money. If they are done to glorify you no matter how good they seem they are worthless to God. If money controls your decisions as it did for the rich young ruler Jesus is not at the center of your life, you have not been borrn-again and are lost.

 

[kyredneck]

In Luke 23:46 Jesus said, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”. The Spirit of Jesus went to heaven at His death.

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Where was Jesus ? | Page 4 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[canadyjd]

“Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”

I have a question or two concerning that statement.

What do you believe Jesus meant by saying that?

How would you believe that statement in relative to the following?
1. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Heb 5:5
2. Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), Gal 1:1
3. Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears; (and having been heard because of his piety Heb 5:7 Darby because it shows the genitive (out of death)

Was Jesus having conversations with the Father while Jesus was dead?

When Jesus said, in Luke 23:46, “Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit”, He believed His Spirit was going back to Heaven to be with the Father until the moment His Spirit would be joined with His body at His resurrection.

Jesus never ceased to be in conversation with the Father.

Jesus’ body went to the grave. His Spirit went into the hands of His Father.

Jesus in no way shape or form went to hell.

peace to you