Luke 16: the rich man in hades; the poor man with Abraham

[robycop3]

" And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ( Revelation 20:14 )?

That's a mistranslation of hades in the KJV. The Greek here reads "hades".

 

[canadyjd]

" And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Thessalonians 5:23 )?

I’ve seen the verse. It is a difficult construction. He says “wholly” and then “whole” spirit, soul, body. Is it whole spirit, whole soul, whole body? Or is it whole soul…. Spirit and body? Or whole spirit…. Soul and body?

Obviously, the emphasis is on the whole person being presented to God, blameless.

There are other verses where spirit and soul are used interchangeably and others where soul is used to refer to the whole person… spirit and body.

I appreciate the comment, but I’m not convinced of a three part person (spirit, body, soul) based on the one verse considering the way the words are used elsewhere.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

That's a mistranslation of hades in the KJV. The Greek here reads "hades".

Nordic = "Hel", the place of the dead ( Hel (location) - Wikipedia )
English = "Hell", the place of the dead ( Hell - Wikipedia, see section under "Etymology" ).
Greek = "ᾍδης " ( transliterated into English as "hades" ), the abode of departed spirits (Source: Strong's Greek: 86. ᾅδης (hadés) -- Hades, the abode of departed spirits).

My friend,
I see the translation as being correct, since ( technically ) the word "hades" is not a word original to the English,
and is instead a direct carry-over ( transliteration ) from the Greek into the English.

I also see that you have the prerogative to view it in any way that you like, roby, and we can both agree to disagree without abandoning civility.

 

[Dave G]

It is a difficult construction. He says “wholly” and then “whole” spirit, soul, body. Is it whole spirit, whole soul, whole body? Or is it whole soul…. Spirit and body? Or whole spirit…. Soul and body?

When I look at it, I see that body, soul and spirit are mentioned individually,
so that is how I understand it;
They are individual parts of the whole.

Obviously, the emphasis is on the whole person being presented to God, blameless.

I agree.

I appreciate the comment, but I’m not convinced of a three part person (spirit, body, soul) based on the one verse considering the way the words are used elsewhere.

OK.

 

[Dave G]

That's a mistranslation of hades in the KJV. The Greek here reads "hades".

Also, I think you missed my point, as I was trying to provoke some thought about the verse...
If death and Hell are both cast into the Lake of Fire, then Hell cannot be the same place as the Lake of Fire, can it?

 

[canadyjd]

When I look at it, I see that body, soul and spirit are mentioned individually,
so that is how I understand it;
They are individual parts of the whole.

I agree.

OK.

I’d like to see how it’s presented in the Greek. Can you do that?

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

I’d like to see how it’s presented in the Greek. Can you do that?

"αυτος δε ο θεος της ειρηνης αγιασαι υμας ολοτελεις και ολοκληρον υμων το πνευμα και η ψυχη και το σωμα αμεμπτως εν τη παρουσια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου τηρηθειη" ( Stephanus 1550, Elzevir 1624 / Beza 1598 / Scrivener 1894 / MT 2000 / Family 35 )

Source:
Interlinear Bible: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Textus Receptus Bibles


"Same yet the God of-the peace may-be-holying / hallowing ( sanctify ) you wholly and whole-lotted ( unimpaired ) of you the spirit and the soul and the body un-blameably ( blameless ) in the beside-being ( presence ) of the master ( Lord ) of-us Jesus anointed ( Christ ) may-be-being-kept (may-it-be-being-kept)."
( Literal translation, no correction for Greek-to-English grammar, spelling is roughly modern-day )

" And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Thessalonians 5:23, KJV, corrected for Greek-to-English grammar circa 1611, spelling corrected to roughly modern-day )

Source:
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1th5.pdf


See also:

Verse Analysis: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Textus Receptus Bibles
Interlinear Bible: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Textus Receptus Bibles
1 Thessalonians 5:23 Interlinear: Biblehub;
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

 

[canadyjd]

"αυτος δε ο θεος της ειρηνης αγιασαι υμας ολοτελεις και ολοκληρον υμων το πνευμα και η ψυχη και το σωμα αμεμπτως εν τη παρουσια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου τηρηθειη" ( Stephanus 1550, Elzevir 1624 / Beza 1598 / Scrivener 1894 / MT 2000 / Family 35 )

Source:
Interlinear Bible: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Textus Receptus Bibles


"Same yet the God of-the peace may-be-holying / hallowing ( sanctify ) you wholly and whole-lotted ( unimpaired ) of you the spirit and the soul and the body un-blameably ( blameless ) in the beside-being ( presence ) of the master ( Lord ) of-us Jesus anointed ( Christ ) may-be-being-kept (may-it-be-being-kept)."
( Literal translation, no correction for Greek-to-English grammar, spelling is roughly modern-day )

" And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Thessalonians 5:23, KJV, corrected for Greek-to-English grammar circa 1611, spelling corrected to roughly modern-day )

Source:
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1th5.pdf


See also:

Verse Analysis: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Textus Receptus Bibles
Interlinear Bible: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Textus Receptus Bibles
1 Thessalonians 5:23 Interlinear: Biblehub;
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

Thank you. I notice in the Greek, just prior to “spirit” and “body” there is a different word (looks like “to”) than just prior to “soul” (looks like “n”).

What is the significance of those words? Perhaps an article (definite or indefinite)?

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Thank you. I notice in the Greek, just prior to “spirit” and “body” there is a different word (looks like “to”) than just prior to “soul” (looks like “n”).

What is the significance of those words? Perhaps an article (definite or indefinite)?

"το" ( nominative / accusative neuter singular ) = "The" in English.
" η" ( nominative feminine singular ) = Also "the" in English.

 

[canadyjd]

"το" ( nominative / accusative neuter singular ) = "The" in English.
" η" ( nominative feminine singular ) = Also "the" in English.

So, “spirit” and “body” are neuter, but “soul” is feminine and the articles match the gender, correct?

What’s the significance of “spirit” and “body” preceded by an “accusative”

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

So, “spirit” and “body” are neuter, but “soul” is feminine and the articles match the gender, correct?

Seems so.
But hey, I'm not an expert in Greek, I only dabble in languages other than my own.

What’s the significance of “spirit” and “body” preceded by an “accusative”

You'd have to ask a Greek expert.
I'm only a hobbyist, having learned the Greek alphabet, a bit of their literature and some mythology while I was in high school years ago.

Not nearly as interesting as what the Lord has shown me over the years through His word.

 

[robycop3]

Nordic = "Hel", the place of the dead ( Hel (location) - Wikipedia )
English = "Hell", the place of the dead ( Hell - Wikipedia, see section under "Etymology" ).
Greek = "ᾍδης " ( transliterated into English as "hades" ), the abode of departed spirits (Source: Strong's Greek: 86. ᾅδης (hadés) -- Hades, the abode of departed spirits).

My friend,
I see the translation as being correct, since ( technically ) the word "hades" is not a word original to the English,
and is instead a direct carry-over ( transliteration ) from the Greek into the English.

I also see that you have the prerogative to view it in any way that you like, roby, and we can both agree to disagree without abandoning civility.

True, but I simply WILL NOT ACCEPT hades being translated as hell in English. To mose English users, hell means the final, permanent abode of the wicked. And rendering hades as hell has JESUS being in hell 3 days & nights, which is inconceivable to a Christian. And that's part of the reasons I don't use the KJV for much of anything but research.

 

[robycop3]

Also, I think you missed my point, as I was trying to provoke some thought about the verse...
If death and Hell are both cast into the Lake of Fire, then Hell cannot be the same place as the Lake of Fire, can it?

No, and that's a good reason that translating hades as hell is incorrect. Hell is unoccupied right now, unless tartarus, where the angels that sinned are kept, is in it. its first HUMAN occupants will be the beast/antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet. The rest won't come until 1k years later.

 

[canadyjd]

Seems so.
But hey, I'm not an expert in Greek, I only dabble in languages other than my own.

You'd have to ask a Greek expert.
I'm only a hobbyist, having learned the Greek alphabet, a bit of their literature and some mythology while I was in high school years ago.

Not nearly as interesting as what the Lord has shown me over the years through His word.

Thank you for the info. You did fine.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

And rendering hades as hell has JESUS being in hell 3 days & nights, which is inconceivable to a Christian.

I'm a Christian and to me it's not inconceivable.

If "hell" ( the holding place of the dead ) is the same place described in differing terms like "hel", "hell", "sheol" and "hades", then the Bible says that Jesus was in the holding place of the dead ( in "prison" where He preached to the spirits that were there, see 1 Peter 3:19-20 ) for 3 days and 3 nights, which is located "down", in the center of the earth:

" Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them." ( Psalms 55:15 ). <----- "Sheol", transliterated into English from the Hebrew and describing the holding place of the dead, and translated into English as "hell" ( the holding place of the dead ).

" for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." ( Matthew 12:40 ).

The Lord Jesus went down...into the heart of the earth and to "hell" / "Hades" / "sheol" ...
Prophecies about Him going there:

" Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:30-31 ). <----- "Hades", transliterated into English from the Greek, and in the KJV and many others, "hell", which is the English word for "hades".

" For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." ( Psalms 16:10 ). <--- Translated into English as "hell" instead of transliterated into English as "sheol".

Also see Psalms 49:15, Psalms 56:13, Psalms 71:20, Psalms 86:13, Jonah 2:6, Isaiah 38:10.


In other words,
I clearly see that the prophecies of the Lord Jesus going to the place of the dead in the center of the earth, were fulfilled.
I also see that "hell" is not the same place as the Lake of Fire, and from other passages that "hell" now is not the same as "hell" was before the Lord rose again.

 

[Dave G]

To mose English users, hell means the final, permanent abode of the wicked.

I know, and until recently that's what I held to.

That's why my best advice for believers is to study their Bibles more,
and come to see the distinction that it makes when it says that death and hell are someday going to be cast into the Lake of Fire ( the second death )...

Which is the final resting place for those who do not experience the first resurrection ( the wicked, or those who have not been made righteous by Christ's blood ).

In other words, I see that "hell" / "hades" / "tartarus" / "sheol" is a temporary holding place until the Judgment,
when all who are not saved will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the final holding place.

Hell is unoccupied right now,

" And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." ( Revelation 20:12-13 ).

To me, that's not what the above says.
This says that death ( "thanatos" ) and hell ( "hades" ) will deliver up the dead ( "nekrous" ) that were in them.
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev20.pdf

So, according to the words on the page,
There are people in "ᾍδης " ( which the KJV, Douay-Rheims and many others trans-lated into English as "hell" instead of trans-literated into English as "hades" ) before the judgment, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Dave G]

True, but I simply WILL NOT ACCEPT hades being translated as hell in English. To mose English users, hell means the final, permanent abode of the wicked. And rendering hades as hell has JESUS being in hell 3 days & nights, which is inconceivable to a Christian. And that's part of the reasons I don't use the KJV for much of anything but research.

And that's the reason that I trust the KJV to be correct on this subject.
Given what I've shown you above, once I realized that:

1) "Hell" = "Sheol" = "Hades" in the Old Testament and before He rose again,
and
2) "Hell" = "Hel" = "Sheol" = "Hades" = "Tartarus" in the New Testament after He rose again...

...and that all who are in Christ now go to be with Him who is at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven when they pass on from this life,

....and that Jesus actually went to the first one ( "Paradise" separated by a fixed gulf between it and "hell", see Luke 16 ) because the Scriptures tell me that He did in Matthew 12:40 and 1 Peter 3:19,

Then it all came together for me.

But if you don't see it that way, then you don't,
and again, it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.


With that, I'll make this my final reply to you in this thread sir, and wish you well.

 

[robycop3]

I'm a Christian and to me it's not inconceivable.

If "hell" ( the holding place of the dead ) is the same place described in differing terms like "hel", "hell", "sheol" and "hades", then the Bible says that Jesus was in the holding place of the dead ( in "prison" where He preached to the spirits that were there, see 1 Peter 3:19-20 ) for 3 days and 3 nights, which is located "down", in the center of the earth:

" Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them." ( Psalms 55:15 ). <----- "Sheol", transliterated into English from the Hebrew and describing the holding place of the dead, and translated into English as "hell" ( the holding place of the dead ).

" for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." ( Matthew 12:40 ).

The Lord Jesus went down...into the heart of the earth and to "hell" / "Hades" / "sheol" ...
Prophecies about Him going there:

" Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:30-31 ). <----- "Hades", transliterated into English from the Greek, and in the KJV and many others, "hell", which is the English word for "hades".

" For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." ( Psalms 16:10 ). <--- Translated into English as "hell" instead of transliterated into English as "sheol".

Also see Psalms 49:15, Psalms 56:13, Psalms 71:20, Psalms 86:13, Jonah 2:6, Isaiah 38:10.


In other words,
I clearly see that the prophecies of the Lord Jesus going to the place of the dead in the center of the earth, were fulfilled.
I also see that "hell" is not the same place as the Lake of Fire, and from other passages that "hell" now is not the same as "hell" was before the Lord rose again.

Hades is NOT hell; that simple! It's the temporary abode of the souls of the dead.

 

[robycop3]

And that's the reason that I trust the KJV to be correct on this subject.
Given what I've shown you above, once I realized that:

1) "Hell" = "Sheol" = "Hades" in the Old Testament and before He rose again,
and
2) "Hell" = "Hel" = "Sheol" = "Hades" = "Tartarus" in the New Testament after He rose again...

...and that all who are in Christ now go to be with Him who is at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven when they pass on from this life,

....and that Jesus actually went to the first one ( "Paradise" separated by a fixed gulf between it and "hell", see Luke 16 ) because the Scriptures tell me that He did in Matthew 12:40 and 1 Peter 3:19,

Then it all came together for me.

But if you don't see it that way, then you don't,
and again, it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.


With that, I'll make this my final reply to you in this thread sir, and wish you well.

Sir, the souls of the dead still go to hades, either paradise or torments. And they will, til the rapture occurs & Jesus calls all the saints from paradise. The wicked shall remain there til the Great White Throne judgment, when hades shall be completely emptied & cast into the LOF. (Rev. 20:14)

 

[percho]

True, but I simply WILL NOT ACCEPT hades being translated as hell in English. To mose English users, hell means the final, permanent abode of the wicked. And rendering hades as hell has JESUS being in hell 3 days & nights, which is inconceivable to a Christian. And that's part of the reasons I don't use the KJV for much of anything but research.

I agree with you. Should have been untranslated.


What was the English concept of hell in 1611 and prior thereto?

In 1611 did they store their potatoes in hell in the winter?