Luke 16: the rich man in hades; the poor man with Abraham

[percho]

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36


and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, 'For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him. Gen 37:38

Was Jacob one of the fathers David was said to be, laid unto? Where was Jacob?

David in Psalm 16 speaking of Christ who God would raise up to sit on the throne of David; For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption. Where was the soul of Jesus of Nazareth for three days and three nights?

 

[percho]

Hebrews 2:6 KJV But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man (singular), that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man (singular), that thou visitest him?
From 1 Cor 15:45 KJV And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
Gen. 2 7 KJV And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Matt 12:40 KJV For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah 1:17 & 2:1,2 ASV And Jehovah prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah; and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed unto Jehovah his God out of the fish’s belly.
And he said,
I called by reason of mine affliction unto Jehovah,
And he answered me;
Out of the belly of Sheol cried I,
And thou heardest my voice.

Where did Jonah consider the belly of the fish to be?
Where should we consider the Son of Man to have been?

 

[canadyjd]

Sheol in the OT, usually means the grave. It was not usually associated with a place of after-life torment.

Peace to you

 

[Dave G]

What was the English concept of hell in 1611 and prior thereto?

In 1611 it was the same as it was in Tyndale's day ( early 1500's ) when he translated "hades" from the Greek and into the English as "hell":

" and the sea gave up her dead, which were in her, and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to his deeds.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is that second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:13-15, Tyndale's New Testament, first published in 1526, spelling corrected to roughly modern day ).
Source:
Revelation 20 Tyndale New Testament

" and the see gave vp her deed which were in her and deth and hell delyvered vp the deed which were in them: and they were iudged every man accordinge to his dedes.
14 And deth and hell were cast into the lake of fyre. This is that second deeth.
15 And whosoever was not founde written in the boke of lyfe was cast into the lake of fyre." ( Revelation 20:13-15, Tyndale's New Testament, original spelling )
Source:
Revelation 20 - TYN Bible - Bible Study Tools

Also:

" The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.[1] The word has cognates in all branches of the Germanic languages, including Old Norse hel (which refers to both a location and goddess-like being in Norse mythology), Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Old High German hella, and Gothic halja. All forms ultimately derive from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic feminine noun *xaljō or *haljō ('concealed place, the underworld').

Source:
Hell - Wikipedia

Section under "etymology" ( origin of word ).

 

[robycop3]

I agree with you. Should have been untranslated.


What was the English concept of hell in 1611 and prior thereto?

In 1611 did they store their potatoes in hell in the winter?

In a couple of etymology sources, hell has meant the abode of the souls of the wicked dead from the 14th c. through today.

The KJV uses hell for sheol, hades, & gehenna. However, only the latter is correct.

And potatoes were stored in a CELLAR.(from 1300s. "Basement" didn't come abiout til the 1700s.)

 

[robycop3]

In 1611 it was the same as it was in Tyndale's day ( early 1500's ) when he translated "hades" from the Greek and into the English as "hell":

" and the sea gave up her dead, which were in her, and death and hell delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to his deeds.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is that second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:13-15, Tyndale's New Testament, first published in 1526, spelling corrected to roughly modern day ).
Source:
Revelation 20 Tyndale New Testament

" and the see gave vp her deed which were in her and deth and hell delyvered vp the deed which were in them: and they were iudged every man accordinge to his dedes.
14 And deth and hell were cast into the lake of fyre. This is that second deeth.
15 And whosoever was not founde written in the boke of lyfe was cast into the lake of fyre." ( Revelation 20:13-15, Tyndale's New Testament, original spelling )
Source:
Revelation 20 - TYN Bible - Bible Study Tools

Also:

" The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.[1] The word has cognates in all branches of the Germanic languages, including Old Norse hel (which refers to both a location and goddess-like being in Norse mythology), Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Old High German hella, and Gothic halja. All forms ultimately derive from the reconstructed Proto-Germanic feminine noun *xaljō or *haljō ('concealed place, the underworld').

Source:
Hell - Wikipedia

Section under "etymology" ( origin of word ).

I looked into several deeper etymology sources, and they say 'hell' has been used in English for the abode of the wicked dead since the 1300s. And I think the AV men simply copied Tyndale in many cases.

Jesus' first mention of gehenna, the lake of fire, is in Matt. 5:22, & the KJV correctly renders it "hell". So hades cannot be hell, as hell can't be cast into hell. perhaps they should've stuck with "paradise" & "torments".

 

[37818]

So hades cannot be hell, as hell can't be cast into hell. perhaps they should've stuck with "paradise" & "torments".

I think you are missing a teaching. The rich man said, ". . . I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
Where as Abraham said, ". . .They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
Now Moses wrote what God said, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." Sheol aka Hades has a lower place below where Abraham was. See also Psalms 86:13.

 

[robycop3]

I think you are missing a teaching. The rich man said, ". . . I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
Where as Abraham said, ". . .They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
Now Moses wrote what God said, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." Sheol aka Hades has a lower place below where Abraham was. See also Psalms 86:13.

Do you KNOW where paradise or torments is? Remember, the rich man in torments could speak to Abe in paradise.

 

[percho]

In a couple of etymology sources, hell has meant the abode of the souls of the wicked dead from the 14th c. through today.

The KJV uses hell for sheol, hades, & gehenna. However, only the latter is correct.

And potatoes were stored in a CELLAR.(from 1300s. "Basement" didn't come abiout til the 1700s.)

I think the following method was used and I think they were considered to be stored in hell.

This was from
Potato Storage Tips - How To Store Potatoes In A Pit (gardeningknowhow.com)


How to Store Potatoes in a Pit Creating a potato pit is a simple matter. First, locate an area outdoors that remains fairly dry, such as a slope or hill. Don’t choose a spot where rainwater tends to pool, as the stored spuds will rot. When creating a potato pit, dig a 1 to 2 foot (31-61 cm.) deep pit at a width dependent upon the number of potatoes you wish to store. Then fill the bottom of the pit with 3 inches (8 cm.) of clean, dry straw and place the potatoes atop in a single layer. You may store up to two bushels of potatoes in a single pit or 16 dry gallons (60 L.) if you can’t wrap your brain around a peck or a bushel. Add another deep layer of straw on top of the potatoes, between 1 and 3 feet (31-91 cm.) deep, depending upon the severity of the weather in your region. Finally, put the previously excavated soil from the pit back on top, covering the newly laid straw until it is at least 3 inches (8 cm.) thick and no straw is exposed. In extreme climates or just for additional protection, you can dig the pit deeper than recommended above and put a clean plastic barrel at a 45-degree angle into the pit. Fill the barrel with the tubers and place a lid on it, loosely closed. Then follow instructions above beginning with covering the barrel with 1 to 3 feet (31-91 cm.) of straw. Using potato pits for winter storage should protect the spuds for 120 days or at least through the winter months.

Read more at Gardening Know How: Storing Potatoes In Ground: Using Potato Pits For Winter Storage

 

[robycop3]

I think the following method was used and I think they were considered to be stored in hell.

This was from
Potato Storage Tips - How To Store Potatoes In A Pit (gardeningknowhow.com)


How to Store Potatoes in a Pit Creating a potato pit is a simple matter. First, locate an area outdoors that remains fairly dry, such as a slope or hill. Don’t choose a spot where rainwater tends to pool, as the stored spuds will rot. When creating a potato pit, dig a 1 to 2 foot (31-61 cm.) deep pit at a width dependent upon the number of potatoes you wish to store. Then fill the bottom of the pit with 3 inches (8 cm.) of clean, dry straw and place the potatoes atop in a single layer. You may store up to two bushels of potatoes in a single pit or 16 dry gallons (60 L.) if you can’t wrap your brain around a peck or a bushel. Add another deep layer of straw on top of the potatoes, between 1 and 3 feet (31-91 cm.) deep, depending upon the severity of the weather in your region. Finally, put the previously excavated soil from the pit back on top, covering the newly laid straw until it is at least 3 inches (8 cm.) thick and no straw is exposed. In extreme climates or just for additional protection, you can dig the pit deeper than recommended above and put a clean plastic barrel at a 45-degree angle into the pit. Fill the barrel with the tubers and place a lid on it, loosely closed. Then follow instructions above beginning with covering the barrel with 1 to 3 feet (31-91 cm.) of straw. Using potato pits for winter storage should protect the spuds for 120 days or at least through the winter months.

Read more at Gardening Know How: Storing Potatoes In Ground: Using Potato Pits For Winter Storage

Whatever was & is used for a potato pit is not called 'hell'.

 

[37818]

Do you KNOW where paradise or torments is? Remember, the rich man in torments could speak to Abe in paradise.

I fail to understand your question. Do you deny what Moses or David wrote?
At that time. Abraham would have been in paradise part of Sheol and that rich man in the lower part of Sheol. Did Abraham lie to the rich man?

 

[percho]

I think you are missing a teaching. The rich man said, ". . . I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
Where as Abraham said, ". . .They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
Now Moses wrote what God said, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." Sheol aka Hades has a lower place below where Abraham was. See also Psalms 86:13.

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, . . ." Sheol aka Hades

What is your chronological concept of when that, "shall burn unto," will be?

In the story above when the rich man says, "send him," isn't it the concept of one being sent as having been raised from the dead? Therefore being resurrected out of the dead, being alive again instead of dead? Is the Rich man seeing Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham as one who has been raised from the dead and in the kingdom of God?

Hebrews 11:18,19 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
1 Cor 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

V's 51,52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Did Abraham believe in the resurrection from the dead?

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That story is not about what happens when you die it is about what happens when the sea gives up the dead and when death and hades give up the dead and names written.

 

[percho]

In a couple of etymology sources, hell has meant the abode of the souls of the wicked dead from the 14th c. through today.

The KJV uses hell for sheol, hades, & gehenna. However, only the latter is correct.

And potatoes were stored in a CELLAR.(from 1300s. "Basement" didn't come abiout til the 1700s.)

We actually agree. Do you think every time the 1611 translators, translated a word as, "hell," they had the concept of, a place of fire consuming everything, in mind ?

 

[37818]

What is your chronological concept of when that, "shall burn unto," will be?

Then till now and into its final place, Revelation 20:14.

 

[percho]

and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this -- judgment, Heb 9:27

for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, 1 Cor 15:21-thru part of 23 a first-fruit Christ

Acts 17:31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'

2 Tim 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign -- From 1 Cor 15:23 afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, & Rev 20:6
Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again (those who are the Christ's, in his presence, from from 1 Cor 15:23); over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is anyone burning in hell today? Before judgement????????????????????????????

What is the chronology of Luke 16:23 relative to the kingdom of God Verse 16 that is being preached of which Paul states flesh and blood cannot inherit, that you must be changed?

When; shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

 

[37818]

Is anyone burning in hell today?

Not in the lake of fire yet, Revelation 20:15. But in Sheol/Hades, like the rich man until the Judgment.

 

[robycop3]

We actually agree. Do you think every time the 1611 translators, translated a word as, "hell," they had the concept of, a place of fire consuming everything, in mind ?

One of the most-galling things to me in the KJV & a few other Bible translations is placing JESUS IN HELL for 3 days & nights. He plainly told the repentant thief on the cross they'd both be in PARADISE that day. And from other verses, we see paradise is part of hades.

 

[MB]

Obviously this is a unique passage of scripture; the only one that describes the immediate fate of the dead. Many Christians do not believe it is literal, but they can't give a satisfactory answer as to why Jesus would tell of such a horrible fate for the unrepentant if it is not true as he said. And I can't see any other reason but to install a great fear. But would Jesus install a great fear of something that happens to no one? Maybe you have an attic ladder and can tell your children if they have any ideas about climbing it into the attic that the boogeyman up there will take them, but would it be right to tell them any such thing?

One thing I definitely don't buy is that, in the times I've heard a speaker preach about this, he has always put up a 'disclaimer' that he doesn't want to preach on it, and usually goes further than that and says he'd rather preach about "anything else" than that subject. It makes for a lot of sermons for one that none wants to preach. But the really hard-to-believe part is they always (as far as I can recall) say they're "not trying to scare anybody." I will put it plain and say I think they're lying. Whether literally true or not, what is the purpose of proclaiming this? One guy said "I'm not trying to scare you-- I'm just trying to let you know you're gonna die and go to one of two places!" What a difference! -- irony meant not between the two places, but between scaring and letting the hearer know.

Anyway, here are some observations I have developed over the years about this:

Neither God nor the devil is mentioned.

The poor man, Lazarus, was said to be taken by the angels; burial is not mentioned.

The rich man was buried, then lifted his eyes from Hades.

Abraham gives no reason for their different fates other than one was rich (and implicitly greedy), and one was poor (and implicitly spent his time begging).

Abraham seemed to be 'in charge' of what happens and what doesn't.

The rich man has no hope, yet he is concerned about those close to him on earth who are most likely headed to where he is. There is silence as to whether Lazarus had such concern for anyone-- or what he thought about anything.

The big irony (to me): Abraham was a rich man, or at least he came to be, who had many "good things" in the world, but that is his explanation to the rich man of why he is in torment.

Questions:
Can anyone be rich, per se, and expect to enter life? Remember not only the "easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle" precept, but also how "rich" and "poor" are relative, and the average American in the USA is rich compared to a clear majority of the world population.

Is it valid and acceptable to God for a Christian to put a lot of money into retirement accounts instead of giving all that same money to 'the poor?'

If we are 'paradise-bound,' will we be carried by angels and comforted by Abraham? Or has he been superseded in that job?

Is going to paradise literal, is torment in hades literal, or is one or the the other literal?

Finally, if Luke 16:19-31 is not literal, what is the meaning or it all? Why did Jesus tell such a story?

In my opinion you don't have to be rich to deny God and love money. Men have been doing this since the beginning. Any thing whether it be money or the love of a woman can be an obstacle keeping us from entering heaven. Any thing we love more than God,
The story in my opinion is real because Jesus mentions the name of the poor man. He doesn't do this in any other parable. The poor man hated his life because he was so miserable.
I've never been rich yet I've never been poor either. I've seen the problems of both rich and poor. The poor are happier than the rich. They literally have nothing to worry about loosing. Some of the rich loose a lot of sleep worrying about loosing what they have. Some are more than generous with there wealth and help a lot of people. Some even get richer because of there generosity. They say you can't out give God.
The rich aren't doomed to hell. People are doom to hell for loving something more than God. I believe this is the message...
MB.