Man's Ability to Repent

[PreachTony]

Again we have a demonstration of ignorance concerning the Calvinist position. No Calvinist that I know of says that you don't need to trust in Christ.

The issue is not the need to believe in Christ. Rather, the issue is the first cause of the belief. Non-Calvinists, for the most part, believe the first cause is within the individual. Calvinists, on the other hand, believe that the first cause is from God--He is the one who acts and pursues; we are the ones who respond.

Not all non-Cals believe that way, Archangel. Some of us believe that God does move first, but that He allows His creation to accept or reject Him.

 

[The Archangel]

Not all non-Cals believe that way, Archangel. Some of us believe that God does move first, but that He allows His creation to accept or reject Him.

Hence the phrase "for the most part."

The difference here is a discussion for a different time.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

Again we have a demonstration of ignorance concerning the Calvinist position. No Calvinist that I know of says that you don't need to trust in Christ.

The issue is not the need to believe in Christ. Rather, the issue is the first cause of the belief. Non-Calvinists, for the most part, believe the first cause is within the individual. Calvinists, on the other hand, believe that the first cause is from God--He is the one who acts and pursues; we are the ones who respond.

The Archangel

I have no problem with what you say. God pleads, even begs, calls, invites, etc. people to repent. It is up to them to do that. Some will and some won't.

 

[salzer mtn]

There is a good example of that on this thread.
In post #35 Nate said:

I wanna get born again but im not sure how to go about the task! Have u guys ever healed in jesus name?


In post #45 Brian answered:
rather, trust in Christ, and you will be clean.

Interestingly enough, no one disagreed with Brian but all gave him a thumbsup, indicating his answer was very good.
It was also an answer that put forth a belief in free will--"trust in Jesus and you will be clean."
--This is the type of answer any non-Cal would give to such an inquiry, and to which every Calvinist would object to. But there was no objection to the answer, only consent. I find that very interesting.

I could say to anyone, call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved Rom 10:13 but I also know whether the person I'm addressing knows it or not that unless he believes on Christ it will not accomplish anything for him to call upon Christ, Rom 10:14. Also Christ must first reveal himself to the unbeliever by his word before he will believe, Rom 10:14 and this is a work of grace. When the rich young ruler came running to Christ and ask him what good thing can I do to inherit eternal life Christ gave him an answer. This answer at first reads like a free will answer but Christ knowing the man's heart and knowing the man had not kept the law from his youth up revealed to the rich young ruler his evil heart to himself.

 

[PreachTony]

I could say to anyone, call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved Rom 10:13 but I also know whether the person I'm addressing knows it or not that unless he believes on Christ it will not accomplish anything for him to call upon Christ, Rom 10:14. Christ must first reveal himself to the unbeliever by his word, Rom 10:14 and this is a work of grace. When the rich young ruler came running to Christ and ask him what good thing can I do to inherit eternal life Christ gave him an answer. This answer at first reads like a free will answer but Christ knowing the man's heart and knowing the man had not kept the law from his youth up revealed to the rich young ruler his evil heart to himself.

Salzer, I actually preached from that scripture last Sunday. The way the Lord showed it to me, the point was not necessarily what the young man could do, but to prove to him that there is nothing within us that we can do of our own accord to gain salvation. No work, no matter how good, can gain salvation for us. It all depends on how we react to the preaching of the gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. No non-Cal would ever argue that God (Father, Son, or Holy Ghost) does not know the hearts of His people. To our understanding, this does not stop Him from still giving us the choice of accepting or rejecting Him when he moves in our lives. As you know, many non-Cals do not hold to Irresistible Grace.

 

[The American Dream]

It is like this. God is the Creator, we are the created. Just because a created being poses the question, "how can a person be held accountable if he cannot repent without intervention by the Holy Spirit?" does not mean one thing. God makes the rules. Just because we do not understand His nature to its depths, does not mean it does not work. God's sovereignty and man's free will within the limits of his fallen state work in perfect harmony. So how do we respond? We have an endless debate about a subject we neither understand or will ever settle. Everything is a gift of God starting with the breath we take. We sinned, and we deserve hell. Anything that keeps us from hell is more than we deserve. God gives salvation, the Holy Spirit, confession, repentance, faith, grace, justification, sanctification, glorification and lots of other things as a gift. It is all of God and nothing of man.

 

[salzer mtn]

Salzer, I actually preached from that scripture last Sunday. The way the Lord showed it to me, the point was not necessarily what the young man could do, but to prove to him that there is nothing within us that we can do of our own accord to gain salvation. No work, no matter how good, can gain salvation for us. It all depends on how we react to the preaching of the gospel and the convicting power of the Holy Ghost. No non-Cal would ever argue that God (Father, Son, or Holy Ghost) does not know the hearts of His people. To our understanding, this does not stop Him from still giving us the choice of accepting or rejecting Him when he moves in our lives. As you know, many non-Cals do not hold to Irresistible Grace.

You first say, but to prove to him that there is nothing within us that we can do of our own accord to gain salvation. This is true. but then you say, It all depends on how we react. This is a contradiction. If the rich young ruler would have came to churches of today they would have declared he was seeking the Lord because he came running, Mark 10:17 and the rich young ruler not only came running but he kneeled to Christ, which in altar call churches this is the same as coming to Christ to repent. Not only that but he called Christ good master, so they would say, he speaks like a Christian so lets Baptist him and put him in the books. The churches would probably think they had caught a big fish because by his testimony he is a keeper of the commandment, Mark 10:20. But there was no work of grace in this rich young ruler and Christ proved that.

 

[DHK]

I could say to anyone, call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved Rom 10:13 but I also know whether the person I'm addressing knows it or not that unless he believes on Christ it will not accomplish anything for him to call upon Christ, Rom 10:14.

"Saying to anyone" is similar to tract evangelism--passing them out to as many people as possible.
But in Paul's day he went into the midst of the city and disptued (discussed) with the Greeks daily. His heart was stirred within him when he saw the idolatry in Athens. He spoke to all that he could and with everyone that he had the opportunity. Most today lack that evangelistic zeal.
When Paul preached he knew it was God that gave the results.
Some believed and some did not.

Also Christ must first reveal himself to the unbeliever by his word before he will believe, Rom 10:14 and this is a work of grace.

There are claims of some Muslims of Christ revealing Himself to them in dreams or visions. They are anecdotal and as far as the Bible is concerned, suspect. So what do you mean "Christ revealing himself." All revelation comes through the Word of God.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
--These are rhetorical questions. There is nothing mentioned here about a special work of grace. It speaks of the responsibility of the believer to get the gospel out.

When the rich young ruler came running to Christ and ask him what good thing can I do to inherit eternal life Christ gave him an answer. This answer at first reads like a free will answer but Christ knowing the man's heart and knowing the man had not kept the law from his youth up revealed to the rich young ruler his evil heart to himself.

He revealed that he had not kept the law and could not keep the law to be saved. He revealed that he coveted his riches more than his desire to covet or desire after Christ. His riches were more important to him, and therefore an idol. Thus he went away sorrowful not believing.

 

[salzer mtn]

It is like this. God is the Creator, we are the created. Just because a created being poses the question, "how can a person be held accountable if he cannot repent without intervention by the Holy Spirit?" does not mean one thing. God makes the rules. Just because we do not understand His nature to its depths, does not mean it does not work. God's sovereignty and man's free will within the limits of his fallen state work in perfect harmony. So how do we respond? We have an endless debate about a subject we neither understand or will ever settle. Everything is a gift of God starting with the breath we take. We sinned, and we deserve hell. Anything that keeps us from hell is more than we deserve. God gives salvation, the Holy Spirit, confession, repentance, faith, grace, justification, sanctification, glorification and lots of other things as a gift. It is all of God and nothing of man.

There has been people in this world that are living and dead that do understand because God has revealed these things to them by the Spirit 1 Cor 2:10. Bunyan wrote books on the nature of man. Churches of the past had inquiry rooms where the pastor would examine seekers and by asking them questions and having a conversation with them the pastor could pin point where they were at in the workings of Gods grace and by that the pastor would be able to give them sound advice. In today's churches, and you know who you are there is a rush for membership and there is no examination at all.

 

[salzer mtn]

"Saying to anyone" is similar to tract evangelism--passing them out to as many people as possible.
But in Paul's day he went into the midst of the city and disptued (discussed) with the Greeks daily. His heart was stirred within him when he saw the idolatry in Athens. He spoke to all that he could and with everyone that he had the opportunity. Most today lack that evangelistic zeal.
When Paul preached he knew it was God that gave the results.
Some believed and some did not.

There are claims of some Muslims of Christ revealing Himself to them in dreams or visions. They are anecdotal and as far as the Bible is concerned, suspect. So what do you mean "Christ revealing himself." All revelation comes through the Word of God.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
--These are rhetorical questions. There is nothing mentioned here about a special work of grace. It speaks of the responsibility of the believer to get the gospel out.

He revealed that he had not kept the law and could not keep the law to be saved. He revealed that he coveted his riches more than his desire to covet or desire after Christ. His riches were more important to him, and therefore an idol. Thus he went away sorrowful not believing.

So you don't think the rich your ruler had a evil heart in light of Heb 3:12 Take heed , brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God ? If you want to believe Christ reveals himself to Muslims in dreams that's your business, I don't. (How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard.) The word of God takes on life to a man when it is applied by the Holy Spirit, if not it is just a dead letter to him.

 

[The Archangel]

I have no problem with what you say. God pleads, even begs, calls, invites, etc. people to repent. It is up to them to do that. Some will and some won't.

Well, no... not really...

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

So you don't think the rich your ruler had a evil heart in light of Heb 3:12 Take heed , brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God ? If you want to believe Christ reveals himself to Muslims in dreams that's your business, I don't. (How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard.) The word of God takes on life to a man when it is applied by the Holy Spirit, if not it is just a dead letter to him.

All men have an evil heart--even the saved. Hebrews 3:12 is written to brethren, not the unsaved. Certainly the rich young ruler had an evil heart. That is why Jesus could so easily expose him.
I just wanted some clarity on what you meant when you said:

Also Christ must first reveal himself to the unbeliever by his word before he will believe,

 

[PreachTony]

You first say, but to prove to him that there is nothing within us that we can do of our own accord to gain salvation. This is true. but then you say, It all depends on how we react. This is a contradiction. If the rich young ruler would have came to churches of today they would have declared he was seeking the Lord because he came running, Mark 10:17 and the rich young ruler not only came running but he kneeled to Christ, which in altar call churches this is the same as coming to Christ to repent. Not only that but he called Christ good master, so they would say, he speaks like a Christian so lets Baptist him and put him in the books. The churches would probably think they had caught a big fish because by his testimony he is a keeper of the commandment, Mark 10:20. But there was no work of grace in this rich young ruler and Christ proved that.

Let me try to clarify my initial response...
When I say there is nothing we can do of ourselves, what I mean is there is no work (helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, etc) that can gain us salvation. Believing on Jesus is not a work, no matter how hard some people try to say it is. Otherwise, a great portion of the New Testament writings on salvation are in contradiction. When I say "how we react" I mean do we believe or do we reject. (As an analogy, consider this, my Dad cooks a meal [my dad's a great cook, by the way] and places it on the table in front of me. I thank him for that meal and I eat. Did I do anything to make that meal? No. Simply accepting the meal does mean I had any part in making it happen. This is not by any means a perfect analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.)

From the very beginning of this young man's account, we see that he is trying to gain eternal life through his own actions. Selling his goods would not have gained him eternal life. Nor would giving the money to the poor. The point is, he had to obey Jesus to gain eternal life. Many of the Cals I've spoken to are so deadset in the idea that belief/faith is a work, that the only way their theology accounts for that is by claiming that God has already chosen the saved and the damned, and there is nothing any of us can do to change that. Therefore, since God has already saved us, we don't have to worry about that pesky "faith/belief is a work" thing and we don't have to worry about a theological doctrine that creates a contradiction in the Pauline writings.

 

[convicted1]

Let me try to clarify my initial response...
When I say there is nothing we can do of ourselves, what I mean is there is no work (helping the homeless, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, etc) that can gain us salvation. Believing on Jesus is not a work, no matter how hard some people try to say it is. Otherwise, a great portion of the New Testament writings on salvation are in contradiction. When I say "how we react" I mean do we believe or do we reject. (As an analogy, consider this, my Dad cooks a meal [my dad's a great cook, by the way] and places it on the table in front of me. I thank him for that meal and I eat. Did I do anything to make that meal? No. Simply accepting the meal does mean I had any part in making it happen. This is not by any means a perfect analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.)

From the very beginning of this young man's account, we see that he is trying to gain eternal life through his own actions. Selling his goods would not have gained him eternal life. Nor would giving the money to the poor. The point is, he had to obey Jesus to gain eternal life. Many of the Cals I've spoken to are so deadset in the idea that belief/faith is a work, that the only way their theology accounts for that is by claiming that God has already chosen the saved and the damned, and there is nothing any of us can do to change that. Therefore, since God has already saved us, we don't have to worry about that pesky "faith/belief is a work" thing and we don't have to worry about a theological doctrine that creates a contradiction in the Pauline writings.

Works have their proper place after salvation. But according to Jesus, even the ability to believe is a work of God...John 6:29...

 

[PreachTony]

Works have their proper place after salvation. But according to Jesus, even the ability to believe is a work of God...John 6:29...

Which is why we have to discuss the definition(s) of "work(s)." Seeing as Ephesians 2 states: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Since we are not saved by works, we have to determine exactly what Paul meant by works in this verse.

After all, the Bible says the following:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

I would hope we both agree that someone cannot call upon the name of the Lord unto salvation without belief. Perhaps you do, I don't know all of your theological leanings, C1. But I get the sense you agree with me.

25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.
26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.
27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Here the jailer is saved by his belief in Jesus Christ, and this happens while Paul is there, yet Paul goes on to say that we are not saved by works. Therefore, 'belief' cannot be a work in the sense Paul was speaking of.

Personally, I believe Paul is referring to our physical works, like helping the needy, feeding the poor, preaching the gospel, etc. Just like those that Jesus refers to here:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus explains rather clearly here that works alone are not sufficient. These people He describes proclaim their good works as though the works are their currency for entering glory. But instead He shows us that that experience of grace, that moment of salvation, is necessary. I absolutely agree with you that works come after salvation. But I do believe that the term "works" has to be discussed in its proper context.

Does that make sense?

 

[convicted1]

Which is why we have to discuss the definition(s) of "work(s)." Seeing as Ephesians 2 states: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Since we are not saved by works, we have to determine exactly what Paul meant by works in this verse.

After all, the Bible says the following:

I would hope we both agree that someone cannot call upon the name of the Lord unto salvation without belief. Perhaps you do, I don't know all of your theological leanings, C1. But I get the sense you agree with me.


Here the jailer is saved by his belief in Jesus Christ, and this happens while Paul is there, yet Paul goes on to say that we are not saved by works. Therefore, 'belief' cannot be a work in the sense Paul was speaking of.

Personally, I believe Paul is referring to our physical works, like helping the needy, feeding the poor, preaching the gospel, etc. Just like those that Jesus refers to here:

Jesus explains rather clearly here that works alone are not sufficient. These people He describes proclaim their good works as though the works are their currency for entering glory. But instead He shows us that that experience of grace, that moment of salvation, is necessary. I absolutely agree with you that works come after salvation. But I do believe that the term "works" has to be discussed in its proper context.

Does that make sense?

No, faith isn't a work that man does. It's a gift of God bestowed unto the believer. Faith is a work of the Spirit, imo.

Faith is always active. It's never idle. If one has true faith, it produces...

ETA:If you study it out, fruits and works are the same. The fruits of the Spirit, such as faith, repentence, regeneration, salvation are works of the Spirit...

 

[The American Dream]

There has been people in this world that are living and dead that do understand because God has revealed these things to them by the Spirit 1 Cor 2:10. Bunyan wrote books on the nature of man. Churches of the past had inquiry rooms where the pastor would examine seekers and by asking them questions and having a conversation with them the pastor could pin point where they were at in the workings of Gods grace and by that the pastor would be able to give them sound advice. In today's churches, and you know who you are there is a rush for membership and there is no examination at all.

That reminds me of the RCC indoctrination to be a member, or churches that require a communicants class, or other churches that require signed pledges of giving and attendance, or signing an agreement of the church covenant. That is not in Scripture. In Acts, when folks were saved they were added to the church the same day, and the training came afterwards. Anything else is a man made invention.

 

[salzer mtn]

That reminds me of the RCC indoctrination to be a member, or churches that require a communicants class, or other churches that require signed pledges of giving and attendance, or signing an agreement of the church covenant. That is not in Scripture. In Acts, when folks were saved they were added to the church the same day, and the training came afterwards. Anything else is a man made invention.

What I wrote is the same as when Christ had the conversation with the rich young ruler. Many people think they have the conviction of God upon their souls but by examining them many do not. Many mistake worldly sorrow for Godly sorrow.

 

[DHK]

What I wrote is the same as when Christ had the conversation with the rich young ruler. Many people think they have the conviction of God upon their souls but by examining them many do not. Many mistake worldly sorrow for Godly sorrow.

Define sorrow. Sorrow is irrelevant. How many people say: "I am sorry."
The expression "Godly sorrow" is only used in the context of Christians, and never in the context of the unbeliever.
The unbeliever needs to repent not "be sorry," or have sorrow.

Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin. One will not have true faith in Christ without repentance at the same time. When a person puts their faith in Christ there is a change. He is now trusting Christ and not the world, money or anything else to provide and protect him. Thus there will be a change in his life. He is turning from one to another. Christ has become the object of his faith.
The same is true of repentance. Repentance and faith happen at the same time. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[salzer mtn]

Define sorrow. Sorrow is irrelevant. How many people say: "I am sorry."
The expression "Godly sorrow" is only used in the context of Christians, and never in the context of the unbeliever.
The unbeliever needs to repent not "be sorry," or have sorrow. .

11 Cor 7:10 For Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. You will say the contents is speaking to Christians, I say, if it is then they all back slid and had to be saved all over again.