Many Means All??

[atpollard]

You are going to try to convince me that "THE MANY" of the next verse has no connection to the condemnation to "ALL MANKIND" of the previous verse? good luck with that.

Therein lies the wonderful thing about the freedom that comes from faith in a Sovereign God ... I have no need to convince you of anything. You asked a question and I answered it. My obligation is finished.

“I can explain it TO YOU, but I cannot understand it FOR YOU.”

So, God bless you and your life.

 

[SavedByGrace]

As already pointed out, Romans 5:15 says

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

In the Greek, we have for the first use, "οι πολλοι", Nominative, Plural; and the second, "τους πολλους", Accusative, Plural.
It is clear that in the first case it refers to the fall in Adam, which has affected the entire human race. Likewise, in the second case, it says that "the grace of God and the free gift by the grace", has "abounded", that is "overflowing", "towards (εἰς) the entire human race". It does not say that the "entire human race" will be saved, but, that God's saving Grace has been made available for the "entire human race"! If we are to limit the second use of "the many", then we must also do for the first use, as they are the same in the Greek!

 

[George Antonios]

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

That highlighted many = all, including Enoch and Elijah, for they also were spiritually dead.

Paul had just said: Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Did Enoch and Elijah never sin? Aren't all men dead in trespasses and sins?

Clearly, the highlighted many of Romans 5:15 is a reference to all men and is used to emphasize the great numerical effect of Adam's sin. This is plain.

 

[Scott Downey]

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

That highlighted many = all, including Enoch and Elijah, for they also were spiritually dead.

Paul had just said: Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Did Enoch and Elijah never sin? Aren't all men dead in trespasses and sins?

Clearly, the highlighted many of Romans 5:15 is a reference to all men and is used to emphasize the great numerical effect of Adam's sin. This is plain.

Just like call means different things depending on context...many also has a different meaning depending on context.
Your broad brush is a dumb way of describing the meaning of this word.
What your teaching is substitute ALL for MANY in every scripture, go ahead people try it and see what happens.

start with Genesis and perform the swap of the word and everyone will see how stupid this is
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: many

 

[SavedByGrace]

Just like call means different things depending on context...many also has a different meaning depending on context.
Your broad brush is a dumb way of describing the meaning of this word.
What your teaching is substitute ALL for MANY in every scripture, go ahead people try it and see what happens.

maybe so, but how about dealing with Romans 5:15? see #22

 

[Scott Downey]

Here is a another example of clarity of intent, God is talking about those who are in a covenant with Him, not those who are not.

Written to a church...
Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

Clearly God does not chasten those who are not his sons
Deuteronomy 8:5
You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the Lord your God chastens you.

But when you swap in all for many the meaning of that is violated. Even so, saying it as All I love I rebuke and chasten, is true.
YET you could have said it as, I love ALL
But God did not say that, so your going to have to change the scripture.
WARNINGS about doing that are in that Book.
And actually this verse is also proof God does not love all, just the many as He loves as they are in a relationship with Him.

 

[Reformed1689]

As already pointed out, Romans 5:15 says

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

In the Greek, we have for the first use, "οι πολλοι", Nominative, Plural; and the second, "τους πολλους", Accusative, Plural.
It is clear that in the first case it refers to the fall in Adam, which has affected the entire human race. Likewise, in the second case, it says that "the grace of God and the free gift by the grace", has "abounded", that is "overflowing", "towards (εἰς) the entire human race". It does not say that the "entire human race" will be saved, but, that God's saving Grace has been made available for the "entire human race"! If we are to limit the second use of "the many", then we must also do for the first use, as they are the same in the Greek!

I'm sure that is what you read into it, yes.

 

[George Antonios]

Just like call means different things depending on context...many also has a different meaning depending on context.
Your broad brush is a dumb way of describing the meaning of this word.
What your teaching is substitute ALL for MANY in every scripture, go ahead people try it and see what happens.

start with Genesis and perform the swap of the word and everyone will see how stupid this is
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: many

Hunh?

Just like call means different things depending on context...many also has a different meaning depending on context.

My point exactly. I just showed that in Romans 5:15, specifically, the word many is a numerical description of all.
How is that "dumb" and "stupid"?

Relax bro.

 

[George Antonios]

Therein lies the wonderful thing about the freedom that comes from faith in a Sovereign God ... I have no need to convince you of anything. You asked a question and I answered it. My obligation is finished.

“I can explain it TO YOU, but I cannot understand it FOR YOU.”

So, God bless you and your life.

@utilyan made a good point, and it's hard to see that reply as not basically saying: "I have no reply to that, but I know a way I can wiggle out of it while looking spiritual". I would be interested in reading your actual reply about disconnecting the many's in adjacent verses.

 

[George Antonios]

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So did the grace of Jesus Christ forgive only many offences but not all?

 

[atpollard]

@utilyan made a good point, and it's hard to see that reply as not basically saying: "I have no reply to that, but I know a way I can wiggle out of it while looking spiritual". I would be interested in reading your actual reply about disconnecting the many's in adjacent verses.

Appearances are deceiving.

• I made a simple point that he had dropped a word in a quote and eliminating that word changed the meaning of the verse.
• He responded that it didn't change the meaning (which it did) and asked me a VERY SPECIFIC question.
• I explained how it had changed the meaning and offered an answer to his specific and narrow question.
• His response was to attempt to drag me into proving something that I had never said, because it was outside the narrow scope of his specific question.

So you are correct.
I did not defend the last statement that he requested that I defend.
He had moved the goal posts.
I had never claimed what he wanted me to defend.
I was not obligated to make an "actual reply" to a false question.

On the issue of my "looking spiritual", you are mistaken. For better or worse, that reflects my actual spiritual beliefs. As a Particular Baptist, God saves by changing hearts and minds ... I do not. That means that I am only called to speak the truth in love. Everyone is completely free to hear, or ignore whatever I say. Either way, I get no credit or blame. It is no skin off my nose what anyone believes. I am not your mother or the Holy Spirit.

I answer questions. I correct false statements. I offer comments where I have something to say. I leave changing hearts and minds to God. I probably suck at evangelism, but I am what I am and it is what it is. We will all answer to our own master.

 

[atpollard]

So did the grace of Jesus Christ forgive only many offences but not all?

Who knows, we would first need to translate the Elizabethan English to understand what it says.

 

[George Antonios]

Who knows, we would first need to translate the Elizabethan English to understand what it says.

Suddenly, after expounding at length about the many, the word many becomes unintelligible "Elizabethan English"?

 

[atpollard]

No such thing as GREEK CALVINISTS.

Technically, there are tens of thousands: Greek Evangelical Church - Wikipedia

Protestants in Greece, including the Greek Evangelical Church and Free Evangelical Churches, stand at about 30,000. [both are Calvinist]

 

[Reformed1689]

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So did the grace of Jesus Christ forgive only many offences but not all?

Well then let's ask the biblical question, are all sins, in fact, forgiven? No.

 

[George Antonios]

Well then let's ask the biblical question, are all sins, in fact, forgiven? No.

Clearly, those who have justification are saved people. Are only many offences of saved people forgiven, but not all their offences?

 

[atpollard]

Suddenly, after expounding at length about the many, the word many becomes unintelligible "Elizabethan English"?

Not the word "many", the archaic sentence structure and vocabulary in the translation you chose to quote is unintelligible.

• "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift:" ... would your English teacher take off points for grammar if you wrote that?
• "of many offences unto justification" ... How many HS graduates could restate that phrase in their own words and correctly understand the meaning?

 

[Reformed1689]

Clearly, those who have justification are saved people. Are only man offences of saved people forgiven, but not all their offences?

And see now you have a problem. For now because the many offenses only apply to the sins of the saved, you have to reconcile that with the fact of the argument that many somehow means every individual earlier. You can't have it both ways.

 

[George Antonios]

I'm just waiting for the reply that's going to mess with the KJB text of Romans 5:16.
You know they're mulling it.

 

[George Antonios]

And see now you have a problem. For now because the many offenses only apply to the sins of the saved, you have to reconcile that with the fact of the argument that many somehow means every individual earlier. You can't have it both ways.

Could you please just answer the question? It's one line of thinking, and a fair question.
Is the many there all? Or not?

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.