Many Means All??

[SavedByGrace]

I never said otherwise.

Ok, if you want to know what the many in Romans 5:15 refers to, then I suggest that you check verse 12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned". The MANY is ALL, and in the entire human race, every single human being. And the second MANY in verse 15 says, that God's Saving Grace extends to "entire human race". Only ones personal theology can argue against this. Check your Greek and show me different

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not everyone dies an eternal death so no, it is not saying all. It says many as in a great number. Some have eternal life, many actually. Some of the population of earth die, some live. It's not hard.

so the entire human race did not die in Adam, as it is very clear from verse 12?

 

[atpollard]

[Rom 5:16 NASB] 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.
[Rom 5:16 NKJV] 16 And the gift [is] not like [that which came] through the one who sinned. For the judgment [which came] from one [offense resulted] in condemnation, but the free gift [which came] from many offenses [resulted] in justification.
[Rom 5:16 NIV] 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
[Rom 5:16 CSB] 16 And the gift is not like the one man's sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification.
[Rom 5:16 YLT] 16 and not as through one who did sin [is] the free gift, for the judgment indeed [is] of one to condemnation, but the gift [is] of many offences to a declaration of 'Righteous,'
[Rom 5:16 WEB] 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift. For the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offenses to justification.

The many of Romans 5:16. All offences, or some offences?

πολύς polýs, pol-oos'; including the forms from the alternate πολλός pollós; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely

"many" offenses = "a great number" of offenses = less than all offenses (in Romans 5:16)

From scripture as a whole: all offenses from some men, and some offenses from all men.

 

[SavedByGrace]

[Rom 5:16 NASB] 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.
[Rom 5:16 NKJV] 16 And the gift [is] not like [that which came] through the one who sinned. For the judgment [which came] from one [offense resulted] in condemnation, but the free gift [which came] from many offenses [resulted] in justification.
[Rom 5:16 NIV] 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
[Rom 5:16 CSB] 16 And the gift is not like the one man's sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification.
[Rom 5:16 YLT] 16 and not as through one who did sin [is] the free gift, for the judgment indeed [is] of one to condemnation, but the gift [is] of many offences to a declaration of 'Righteous,'
[Rom 5:16 WEB] 16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift. For the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offenses to justification.



πολύς polýs, pol-oos'; including the forms from the alternate πολλός pollós; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverbial, largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely

"many" offenses = "a great number" of offenses = less than all offenses (in Romans 5:16)

From scripture as a whole: all offenses from some men, and some offenses from all men.

in verse 15, does MANY mean some, or the entire human race?

 

[Reformed1689]

in verse 15, does MANY mean some, or the entire human race?

He uses it in distinct ways for distinct purposes. Or do you think in verse 19 all are made righteous? Are you a universalist?

 

[George Antonios]

what you are going to twist it to mean.

Almost getting close to a 1-to-1 ratio of accusations/posts.

Some, not all, but that doesn't mean what you are going to twist it to mean. It qualifies by the very nature of the sacrifice which offenses get covered by forgiveness. No offenses are justified though, let's make that clear.

I honestly did not follow. Could you please explain more, step-by-step?
Let me see if I followed:

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So the free gift of justification is of > "some" offences unto justification?

 

[Reformed1689]

Almost getting close to a 1-to-1 ration of accusations/posts.



I honestly did not follow. Could you please explain more, step-by-step?
Let me see if I followed:

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

So the free gift of justification is of > "some" offences unto justification?

I have no idea what you are asking me here.

 

[George Antonios]

Not everyone dies an eternal death so no, it is not saying all. It says many as in a great number. Some have eternal life, many actually. Some of the population of earth die, some live. It's not hard.

What do you think of the reply of post #23? It's still there.

 

[George Antonios]

I have no idea what you are asking me here.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

How are only "some" of the offences of those who are justified, justified (for lack of a better term)?

 

[Reformed1689]

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

How are only "some" of the offences of those who are justified, justified (for lack of a better term)?

What sin is justified? None. If you think sin is justified you have a HUGE theological problem.

 

[SavedByGrace]

He uses it in distinct ways for distinct purposes. Or do you think in verse 19 all are made righteous? Are you a universalist?

Verse 19 says, "For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous". In the first instance it is the entire human race, everyone. The second use is retrospective, going back to verse, to only, "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness". No universalem here!

 

[Reformed1689]

Verse 19 says, "For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous". In the first instance it is the entire human race, everyone. The second use is retrospective, going back to verse, to only, "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness". No universalem here!

So in other words, many only means all when it is useful for your theology? Noted.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So in other words, many only means all when it is useful for your theology? Noted.

You have much to learn if you are open to the Holy Spirit! If you take verse 19 in isolation then it does teach universalism, because in the Greek text both uses of "many" are identical. I told you that you need to seriously consider learning deeper Greek to really understand the what the Bible actually says

 

[George Antonios]

What sin is justified? None. If you think sin is justified you have a HUGE theological problem.

Wow David...ok.

 

[George Antonios]

You have much to learn if you are open to the Holy Spirit! If you take verse 19 in isolation then it does teach universalism, because in the Greek text both uses of "many" are identical. I told you that you need to seriously consider learning deeper Greek to really understand the what the Bible actually says

No he doesn't. I understand it just fine from the English text of the reformation, and I agree with you, and I'm originally Greek.
That idea of needing "deeper Greek" is unscriptural and elitist à la Roman Catholicism where only the learned priest could properly understand the text. The devil has fooled protestants, but with their own flavour of poison...same poison though.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No he doesn't. I understand it just fine from the English text of the reformation, and I agree with you, and I'm originally Greek.
That idea of needing "deeper Greek" is unscriptural and elitist à la Roman Catholicism where only the learned priest could properly understand the text. The devil has fooled protestants, but with their own flavour of poison...same poison though.

So Christian Greek scholarship is wrong? Or a desire to get a better understanding of what the Bible actually teaches?

 

[George Antonios]

So Christian Greek scholarship is wrong? Or a desire to get a better understanding of what the Bible actually teaches?

All learning has its place, including learning tongues. And a desire for the truth is wonderful.

I'm just saying that the oft-repeated humanistic mantra that "original" tongues scholarship is needed for a better understanding of the scriptures is not a scriptural concept, and more often it leads people to simply choose their own flavour of doctrine. I've worked with such scholars, and they hardly agree among themselves on what's the best Greek or Hebrew. It's a free-for-all among life-time scholars, and much more so among non-scholars.

 

[George Antonios]

So Christian Greek scholarship is wrong? Or a desire to get a better understanding of what the Bible actually teaches?

I mean look, no one answered post #23 (one guy disingenuously pretended that I mean that every time many appears it means all in every verse) or post #30 (atpollard pretended he couldn't read the English and David just ignored me when I kept repeating the question and pretended I meant that sins are justified)
And that was done just with the text of the King James Bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

Sure all of the many !

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

 

[George Antonios]

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

So all can mean some (John 6:36), but many can't mean all (Romans 5)?