Many Means All??

[Alan Gross]

So all can mean some (John 6:36), but many can't mean all (Romans 5)?

qualified.

'all' qualified as those given.

'many', in Romans 5, are those who received righteousness.

...

the principle determinant is the qualification of Salvation.

those who are Saved are Led by The Spirit
and Enabled by The Spirit to be Taught The Things of God,
Called, 'Truth'.

...

Easy believe-ism and Universal Atonement are separate, distinct,
means of 'Salvation', then Salvation by The Doctrines of Grace.

One does NOT require God's Involvement, as a qualification, and only mental consent.

...

And there is only One Way of Salvation.

 

[Reformed1689]

Wow David...ok.

Name one sin that is justified and show me where it says that in Scripture.

 

[George Antonios]

'many', in Romans 5, are those who received righteousness.

It's also all men.

For if through the offence of one many be dead (v.15) followed by judgment came upon all men to condemnation (v.18).

 

[George Antonios]

Name one sin that is justified and show me where it says that in Scripture.

David, you are either feigning misunderstanding me, (despite my qualification of "justified" as "lack of a better term" because I was trying to stick to the terminology of the text rather than use "atoned", for example, since you took issue with "forgiven", remember?), because you couldn't answer and/or because you rabidly wish to condemn me at every turn, being all that spiritual; -------
or you live in warped reality where I cannot follow you.

Either way: communication break-down.

 

[Reformed1689]

It's also all men.

For if through the offence of one many be dead (v.15) followed by judgment came upon all men to condemnation (v.18).

But not all received justification.

 

[George Antonios]

But not all received justification.

Because:

unlike in the case of condemnation where all men have no free choice in the matter since all men are born under the condemnation,

in the case of justification men do have a free choice, and not all the men that were born under condemnation choose to receive the free gift (which is indeed available to all men who were born under condemnation).

Thus the many appears restricted to "some" but only as a de facto, reality-on-the-ground, self-imposed restriction given that not all men will receive of their free will the gift of justification.

Paul's many in relation to justification is descriptive of that reality that not all men believe, just as it is descriptive about many being all men being under condemnation; it's not theologically normative.

If all men would believe, then the many would be all for justification in equal measure as the many means all for condemnation.

So it's not all of the many who are Calvinistically elect who get justified; it's many of the all who are condemned who get justified.

 

[Reformed1689]

Because:

unlike in the case of condemnation where all men have no free choice in the matter since all men are born under the condemnation,

in the case of justification men do have a free choice, and not all the men that were born under condemnation choose to receive the free gift (which is indeed available to all men who were born under condemnation).

Thus the many appears restricted to "some" but only as a de facto, reality-on-the-ground, self-imposed restriction given that not all men will receive of their free will the gift of justification.

Paul's many in relation to justification is descriptive of that reality that not all men believe, just as it is descriptive about many being all men being under condemnation; it's not theologically normative.

If all men would believe, then the many would be all for justification in equal measure as the many means all for condemnation.

So it's not all of the many who are Calvinistically elect who get justified; it's many of the all who are condemned who get justified.

No, justification is available to a restricted elect. There is no such thing as free will in the sense that we have an equal choice between two options. We have a will under bondage to sin unless we are changed by the Spirit. The Spirit only changes those whom God has predestined.

 

[George Antonios]

No, justification is available to a restricted elect. There is no such thing as free will in the sense that we have an equal choice between two options. We have a will under bondage to sin unless we are changed by the Spirit. The Spirit only changes those whom God has predestined.

Ok, you can answer that. But all that is external to Romans 5. The interpretation I presented you is consistent with the text.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ok, you can answer that. But all that is external to Romans 5. The interpretation I presented you is consistent with the text.

You have to take the whole Bible, not just isolated verses or passages.

 

[George Antonios]

You have to take the whole Bible, not just isolated verses or passages.

An indirect admission that it's external to Romans 5 and that the interpretation was consistent with the text of Romans 5.
And yes, of course we must take all the Bible.
But I've played that game a long time now:
You knock a Calvinist brother out of Ephesians 1 so he takes you to Romans 9.
You knock him out of Romans 9 he takes you to John 6.
You knock him out of John 6 and he takes you back to Ephesians 1 ignoring that he had gotten knocked out of that earlier, and round and round we go.

 

[Reformed1689]

An indirect admission that it's external to Romans 5 and that the interpretation was consistent with the text of Romans 5.
And yes, of course we must take all the Bible.
But I've played that game a long time now:
You knock a Calvinist brother out of Ephesians 1 so he takes you to Romans 9.
You knock him out of Romans 9 he takes you to John 6.
You knock him out of John 6 and he takes you back to Ephesians 1 ignoring that he had gotten knocked out of that earlier, and round and round we go.

First of all, you don't knock a Calvinist out of any of those. We just prove our point with other passages to show you the whole Bible teaches the doctrines of grace from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[George Antonios]

First of all, you don't knock a Calvinist out of any of those. We just prove our point with other passages to show you the whole Bible teaches the doctrines of grace from Genesis to Revelation.

Right, just like you just dropped Romans 5.

 

[Reformed1689]

Right, just like you just dropped Romans 5.

I did not drop Romans 5. It does not say that the forgiveness or atonement is available for all in any form.

 

[George Antonios]

I did not drop Romans 5. It does not say that the forgiveness or atonement is available for all in any form.

AAAAAnd back to square 1 as if nothing happened. Told you.

It does not say that the forgiveness or atonement is available for all in any form.

unhunh:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Well, I bid you goodnight now.

 

[Reformed1689]

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Yes, IF you take it out of context.

 

[ad finitum]

No, justification is available to a restricted elect. There is no such thing as free will in the sense that we have an equal choice between two options. We have a will under bondage to sin unless we are changed by the Spirit. The Spirit only changes those whom God has predestined.

Please allow one to suggest that here, the premise as expressed, e.g. “We have a will under bondage to sin unless we are changed by the Spirit”, is not clear – at all.

What is meant by that premise?


1. The will might desire to escape from bondage to sin but the flesh is hopelessly weak to do so. The will is therefore ineffectual.

OR

2. The will never has any desire to escape bondage to sin (presumably because it sees no problem in the first place).


If #2 is the idea, then what about this:

Do not even some unbelievers desire to escape, say, bondage to substance addiction? Substance addiction is sin, yes?

If an unbeliever desires to escape bondage from at least one sin, can he not desire to escape from the bondage of any or all other sin of which he is aware? There are many who seek counsel for anger management, for example. Doesn't that mean he is aware of the sin of anger and that he wishes to be free of its power?

 

[Reformed1689]

Please allow one to suggest that here, the premise as expressed, e.g. “We have a will under bondage to sin unless we are changed by the Spirit”, is not clear – at all.

What is meant by that premise?


1. The will might desire to escape from bondage to sin but the flesh is hopelessly weak to do so. The will is therefore ineffectual.

OR

2. The will never has any desire to escape bondage to sin (presumably because it sees no problem in the first place).


If #2 is the idea, then what about this:

Do not even some unbelievers desire to escape, say, bondage to substance addiction? Substance addiction is sin, yes?

If an unbeliever desires to escape bondage from at least one sin, can he not desire to escape from the bondage of any or all other sin of which he is aware? There are many who seek counsel for anger management, for example. Doesn't that mean he is aware of the sin of anger and that he wishes to be free of its power?

I would submit he is trying to escape for selfish reasons because he sees what the behavior is doing to him. But is he leaving that sin to seek after God and to follow Him? That's the difference.

 

[AustinC]

Because:

unlike in the case of condemnation where all men have no free choice in the matter since all men are born under the condemnation,

in the case of justification men do have a free choice, and not all the men that were born under condemnation choose to receive the free gift (which is indeed available to all men who were born under condemnation).

Ah yes...the old God just dropped a strange, wrapped package on the corner and any who choose to take it are saved, theology. Have fun finding that free gift on the corner teaching in the Bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Ah yes...the old God just dropped a strange, wrapped package on the corner and any who choose to take it are saved, theology. Have fun finding that free gift on the corner teaching in the Bible.

Right. The real issue is did God leave salvation to chance or did he actually come and save the ones that he chose? One option is not found in Scripture and leaves Jesus' sacrifice as partially wasted, the other is a true redemption and love story.

 

[Alan Gross]

It's also all men.

For if through the offence of one many be dead (v.15) followed by judgment came upon all men to condemnation (v.18).

All man are all men.

Many are qualified as no longer being alive.