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Many Means All??
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
None (sort a, re: op):
The Bible Teaches what The Author of The Bible Intends.
"Many" qualifies, 'all', to less than all.
Try it, everyone.
This is The Truth The Holy Spirit Teaches,
comparing Scripture with Scripture,
that Were Spoken with Spirit and in Life.
Romans 5
15But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.
Many not all, less than all.....check.
MUCH MORE grace that it overflows the many. Hmmm ok.
Tell us HOW MUCH MORE did the grace overflow the many.
15But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.
Many not all, less than all.....check.
MUCH MORE grace that it overflows the many. Hmmm ok.
Tell us HOW MUCH MORE did the grace overflow the many.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You removed a word from your own quote of scripture to change the meaning of the word of God.
... grace overflowed TO the many.
Unintentional and it doesn't change it.
Tell us HOW MUCH MORE did the grace overflow the TO the many.
Tell us.^
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Gladly, although I am a bit surprised that you do not know this.
I believe it was unintended, however I must respectfully disagree that it does not change anything.Unintentional and it doesn't change it.
Here is the verse as you presented it: "But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many."
Stripping away the clauses to create a simple sentence at the core:
The grace of God and the gift [subject] did overflow [verb] to the many [object clause].
The grace of God and the gift [subject] did overflow [verb] the many [object].
In the first sentence (as it was written) the grace overflowed from Jesus and was provided to the many. It is Jesus that has an excess of grace to give.
In the second sentence (as you unintentionally changed it), the grace flows from Jesus and overwhelms "the many" flowing from them to ... somewhere.
The first reading makes Jesus the source of overflowing grace to me, and the second reading makes Jesus the source of grace and that grace overflows from men.
So it did not change nothing.
"But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many."
Now for your answer:
- Quid pro quo - an EQUAL exchange between the Sin of Adam and the Grace of Christ would be something like "Prevenient Grace". Through Adam, all men inherited a fallen nature, so through Christ that fallen nature is removed. Men are now morally neutral and each is fully capable of choosing to obey the Law of God and live a sinless life, or choose to sin. We are restored to the innocence of Adam in the garden. Even one sin, willfully committed becomes your personal "unpardonable sin". Thus many will die (if not all) because of the sins they choose rather than any sin of Adam.
- much more - Christ set right the "death" inherited from Adam's sin. Not merely restoring man to a position of moral neutrality, but actually saving us from our own sins. That includes restoring us from future sins. The grace (unmerited favor) of the gift (something not earned) goes beyond simple restoration of what was lost ... Adam was a beloved creation, but we are children of God . Adam walked WITH God, but God LIVES IN us.
The word many does not mean all in Romans 5. Neither dies its use prove any reformed doctrine.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Gill:
"that is, the righteousness of Christ, in which the grace of God is so illustrious, is much more effectual to the giving of life to all his seed and offspring;
" not barely such a life as Adam had in innocence, and which he lost by the offence, but a spiritual and an eternal one;
"which sheds the exuberance of this grace, which secures and adjudges to a better life than what was lost by the fall."
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
many simply refers to a large number of people, that number are those who are saved by His grace. Not all are saved by
his Grace.
Isaiah 53 also speaks of the many, not ALL
Christ bore the sin of MANY not ALL
For those who He, Christ justifies, are those of who HE bore their sin.
But He did not bear the sins of all, he was crucified to bear the sins of many (a large number of people), His soul being an offering for sin, meaning the sins of the believers, not the sin of the unbelievers..
Christ did not bear the sin of ALL, otherwise ALL would be justified.
The unbelievers go to hellfire, with their sins not born by Him. His death does not justify those who do not believe in Him. He did not die for unbelievers, that is a critical point, because if He did, that means He bore their sins, but unbelievers go to hell. And clearly it says, He bore the sin of many, not all.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
his Grace.
Isaiah 53 also speaks of the many, not ALL
Christ bore the sin of MANY not ALL
For those who He, Christ justifies, are those of who HE bore their sin.
But He did not bear the sins of all, he was crucified to bear the sins of many (a large number of people), His soul being an offering for sin, meaning the sins of the believers, not the sin of the unbelievers..
Christ did not bear the sin of ALL, otherwise ALL would be justified.
The unbelievers go to hellfire, with their sins not born by Him. His death does not justify those who do not believe in Him. He did not die for unbelievers, that is a critical point, because if He did, that means He bore their sins, but unbelievers go to hell. And clearly it says, He bore the sin of many, not all.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Matthew 1:21 they shall call His Name Jesus, because He Will Save His people from their sins.
Sounds great until you read the first time it says "THE MANY".
Its pointing TO the particular "the many" already stated.
Lets get some clarification.
I would have saw a bigger difference if they took away the word "THE" in to "THE MANY".
"For if by the offense of the one the many died"
^Do you see that word "MANY" right there? Its like you skip right over this one.
Many died.....NOT ALL. I would say ALL did die and need a savior. But according to your vocabulary many doesn't mean all. According to your mess only SOME of us need saving rest perfectly fine, only many died....not All.
"In what world does many equate all?"
Now the grace is overflowed TO THAT PARTICULAR "MANY".
THE in THE MANY. That particular MANY which died, NOW ALL THE MORE overflowed THEM (THE MANY).
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
You don't have a point.
Wanna talk about something else?
Here is a BIBLICAL, "all":
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;
and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Did Enoch die?
Did Jesus die because the sin of Adam was passed down to Him?
Two less than ALL in THE MANY.
(However, in this case: The point is that not all have yet died because of Adam's sin because some are still physically alive and others have not yet been born ... so "the many" is appropriate where "all" would have been an exaggeration.)
In no culture or language is "many" the same as "all".
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Sure all of the many !
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Good post !
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Not addressing the problem. Keep skipping.
"For if by the offense of the one the many died"
^Do you see that word "MANY" right there? Its like you skip right over this one.
So when Adam and Eve sinned it affects Many not All. That is what I want you to confirm.
1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned—
Romans 5
18So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.
Very next verse he is emphasizing and saying the same thing:
19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
You are going to try to convince me that "THE MANY" of the next verse has no connection to the condemnation to "ALL MANKIND" of the previous verse? good luck with that.
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