Marian Apparitions

[DHK]

As no one knows what Mary or Jesus looked like the apparitions are as misleading as the illustrations on most Sunday School material. Fooling children carries a specific curse from Jesus. Don't know about fooling adults.

Didn't you know?
Mary was Caucasian with a slight tan. Baby Jesus was white and fair with blue eyes. Everyone knows that. Just look at the statues.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Show me the Scripture that says that praying for someone saves them.

Show me where scripture states that praying for someone has no impact on their salvation. You cannot. Scripture tells us to pray for one another. If it is of no import, then why pray at all. Please answer that question.

WM

 

[DHK]

Show me where scripture states that praying for someone has no impact on their salvation. You cannot. Scripture tells us to pray for one another. If it is of no import, then why pray at all. Please answer that question.

WM

Show me in the Bible where God blessed those who prayed to dead people?

 

[WestminsterMan]

Show me in the Bible where God blessed those who prayed to dead people?

Trying to change the subject are we? If you want to discuss this then start another thread and stop trying to derail this one.

Seriously, if praying does nothing then why do it?

WM

 

[DHK]

Trying to change the subject are we? If you want to discuss this then start another thread and stop trying to derail this one.

Seriously, if praying does nothing then why do it?

WM

One on your many quotes in reference to the rosary:

Wrong - the promise was salvation for those PRAYING the rosary.

Praying the rosary (praying to Mary) is praying to the dead. It is not a different subject. It is right on topic. It is what you have been suggesting all along. We don't pray to the dead. It is called necromancy. Mary is dead and buried, and by now her bones have no doubt turned to dust and stink. The only one to have risen from the dead is Christ. Mary is dead and cannot be an intercessor for anyone.

So tell me, why do advocate necromancy, something which God condemns?

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
--Under OT law the penalty was death.

 

[WestminsterMan]

One on your many quotes in reference to the rosary:

Praying the rosary (praying to Mary) is praying to the dead. It is not a different subject.

It is right on topic. It is what you have been suggesting all along. We don't pray to the dead. It is called necromancy. Mary is dead and buried, and by now her bones have no doubt turned to dust and stink. The only one to have risen from the dead is Christ. Mary is dead and cannot be an intercessor for anyone.

So I suppose that we all just sleep in our graves until the resurrection. Is that what you believe DHK? If no one is in heaven but Jesus, then where does God keep all of those souls who have passed on - perhaps they are in purgatory?

So tell me, why do advocate necromancy, something which God condemns?

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
--Under OT law the penalty was death.

So let me ask again. If you think that the souls of the dead in Christ are not in heaven, then where are they? We are talking about the souls of the dead in Christ - not their physical bodies.

WM

 

[DHK]

So I suppose that we all just sleep in our graves until the resurrection. Is that what you believe DHK? If no one is in heaven but Jesus, then where does God keep all of those souls who have passed on - perhaps they are in purgatory?



So let me ask again. If you think that the souls of the dead in Christ are not in heaven, then where are they? We are talking about the souls of the dead in Christ - not their physical bodies.

WM

Or a necromancer - דרש אל המתים doresh el hammethim, one who seeks from or inquires of the dead.

--Adam Clarke.
We are talking about people--those who have passed on before us. Mary is dead. It matters not where her "soul" is. She is dead. What matters is that the resurrection has not yet taken place. She is dead and her body is still buried. Any prayer to anyone that is dead is necromancy, and is condemned by the Word of God to the point of the penalty of death.

It is not different than the eastern religions practice of ancestor worship. They pray to their ancestors, though they be dead. What is the difference? Please explain. They know full well that their bodies are in their graves, but they pray to their ancestors to protect them and their houses anyway. They often lay out gifts of food and other things for them. But the "ancestor spirits" never take them. I wonder why? They are dead. Necromancy is forbidden.

 

[The Biblicist]

So I suppose that we all just sleep in our graves until the resurrection. Is that what you believe DHK? If no one is in heaven but Jesus, then where does God keep all of those souls who have passed on - perhaps they are in purgatory?

So tell me, why do advocate necromancy, something which God condemns?



Ok. So let me ask again. If you think that the souls of the dead in Christ are not in heaven, then where are they? We are talking about the souls of the dead in Christ - not their physical bodies.

WM

The Fatima apparition promised salvation to those who merely repeated the rosary many more times:

Lucia then asked if they would go to heaven and she was told yes, she and Jacinta would go to heaven, but Francisco would need to say many rosaries first.

The Fatima apparition promised salvation to those who believed in the Immaculate heart of Mary:

He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it;

The Fatima apparition demanded that a chapel, a place of worship, to be built in order to honor her:

13 October 1917

"I want to tell you that a chapel is to be built here in my honour.

Only people deceived by demons will defend this demon and what it said. - 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 Jn. 4:1,6

 

[Alive in Christ]

Westminster man...

Ok...Ok... we got it already. You think that the RCC teaches another gospel, yada, yada, yada. Now, have you anything constructive to add to the discussion...

He IS adding something contructive. He is proclaiming the truth. How can the truth not be constructive?

 

[Zenas]

Only people deceived by demons will defend this demon and what it said. - 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 Jn. 4:1,6

I would not want to trade places with you when you get to Heaven and come face to face with the Blessed Virgin Mary and find out that she really is the Queen of Heaven. Wow! You might even have to bow to her. So humiliating! And how will you explain to her that you called her a demon?

 

[The Biblicist]

I would not want to trade places with you when you get to Heaven and come face to face with the Blessed Virgin Mary and find out that she really is the Queen of Heaven. Wow! You might even have to bow to her. So humiliating! And how will you explain to her that you called her a demon?

You have got to be joking??? You are a deacon in a Baptist church and you are telling me you believe that this blasphemous apparition is actually Mary???

Does your Pastor believe what you believe about this?

The Bible defines who the "Queen of Heaven" is and it is not Mary of the bible but the harlot of paganism. That is precisely the "Queen" that Rome adores and apparently that you adore.

 

[annsni]

I would not want to trade places with you when you get to Heaven and come face to face with the Blessed Virgin Mary and find out that she really is the Queen of Heaven. Wow! You might even have to bow to her. So humiliating! And how will you explain to her that you called her a demon?

Bow to Mary in heaven? God forbid!!!!

 

[The Biblicist]

The Fatima apparition demanded that a chapel, a place of worship, to be built in order to honor her:

13 October 1917

"I want to tell you that a chapel is to be built here in my honour.

Mt. 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

When Peter suggested building three tabernacles, one for Christ and one for Moses and Elijah he was rebuked by the Father "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him"

Yet this apparition at Fatima has the audacity to demand that a chapel be built to honor her! Not to honor Moses or Elijah but her! Not to honor God but her? Not to honor Jesus Christ but her! That is taking a place equal to Deity as chapels are places dedicated to honor and worship God not creatures.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Westminster man...

You said...

Well, I don't think that's exaclly what that meant, but I'm not an expert on it either. However, I don't find anything wrong with the Hail Mary Prayer part of the rosary. I actually find it to be Christocentric.

Really? Are you comfortable with this part of the rosary?...

HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope!

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Do you deny that this is nothing less than blasphemous, hellish, idolatrous, heretical prayer?

http://www.rosary-center.org/howto.htm

 

[Zenas]

You have got to be joking??? You are a deacon in a Baptist church and you are telling me you believe that this blasphemous apparition is actually Mary???

Does your Pastor believe what you believe about this?

The Bible defines who the "Queen of Heaven" is and it is not Mary of the bible but the harlot of paganism. That is precisely the "Queen" that Rome adores and apparently that you adore.

If you go back and read Post #1, I said that I have my doubts, and I meant doubts about whether they happened. Fatima is better documented than the others so we have to give it more credence. I posited a question similar to this on another Christian board and mostly got responses like "Didn't happen," or "hysterical primitive superstitious people." Never in my wildest dreams did I think you people would actually believe these events happened, BUT that they are demonic in nature. You people are nuts! These apparitions, if they really happened, are all reported to have taught very Christ centered lessons. Scripture teaches that no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.

So for me the jury is still out as to whether they happened but if they did happen, then yes it was the Virgin Mary, mother of our Lord, and some day those who call her demonic will have to pay dearly for their mistake.

And why are you concerned about what my pastor believes? He is the pastor of a 200 year old Baptist church with 1,000+ resident members and a 1.3 million dollar budget. He has a real Doctor of Ministry degree from SBTS. How many of these things can you claim for yourself or your church?

 

[The Biblicist]

If you go back and read Post #1, I said that I have my doubts, and I meant doubts about whether they happened. Fatima is better documented than the others so we have to give it more credence. I posited a question similar to this on another Christian board and mostly got responses like "Didn't happen," or "hysterical primitive superstitious people." Never in my wildest dreams did I think you people would actually believe these events happened, BUT that they are demonic in nature. You people are nuts! These apparitions, if they really happened, are all reported to have taught very Christ centered lessons. Scripture teaches that no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.

So for me the jury is still out as to whether they happened but if they did happen, then yes it was the Virgin Mary, mother of our Lord, and some day those who call her demonic will have to pay dearly for their mistake.

And why are you concerned about what my pastor believes? He is the pastor of a 200 year old Baptist church with 1,000+ resident members and a 1.3 million dollar budget. He has a real Doctor of Ministry degree from SBTS. How many of these things can you claim for yourself or your church?

It is incredible to me that anyone who would be qualified to be a deacon in a Baptist church does not possess minimal spiritual discernment to see through something so patently obvious to be demonic in character. That in itself is staggering.

For you to have serious doubts about an apparition that demands a chapel be built for her own honor is something no other Being in history has ever demanded but One - that is God. He commanded a tabernacle be built for Him to honor Him. A temple to honor Him. A Congregational temple to honor Him "the house of God."

For you to have serious doubts about an apparition that consistently is concerned about herself being adored and honored and believed in by men is something no other Being in Biblical history has ever demanded but God (except false gods and false prophets).

For you to have serious doubts about an apparition that consistently and repeatedly was more concerned about having men repeat the rosary more than read the Bible, go to church and live holy lives is astounding!

For you to have serious doubts about an apparition that promises salvation to all who believe in her immaculate heart rather than in the Person and work of Jesus Christ is utterly astounding!

This apparition is the pagan whore of Babylon who masquerades as the mother of Jesus and it should be quite obvious because even the Holy Spirit will not speak of himself but glorify Christ how then can any one with two cents of spiritual discernment believe that an apparition that is so self-centered and demanding of honor and attention could possibly be even associated with the Holy Spirit of God?????????

 

[Matt Black]

Think it through! You are teaching that God the Son is not eternal but was conceived in time and space in the womb of Mary.

I am saying that God the Son is eternal and WHEN the Holy Spirit conceived "flesh" (human nature) in Mary that God the Son INDWELT what was conceived. I am saying when the Father PREPARED a body that God the Son TOOK UPON HIMSELF that body.

The "child is born" but the Son is "given"! If not, then the Son had no previous existence before birth. Think it through! What is born of flesh is flesh! Dieity cannot be conceived by humanity.

I have thought it through and you still appear at least to be denying an essential feature of the Incarnation: that God the Son, though eternally pre-existent, took on flesh and was born as a baby in Bethlehem. You seem to be denying that God the Son experienced being born, which is an essential feature of being human.

 

[Matt Black]

Quite the tricky phrase that can lead to all kinds of heresy. It is a mistaken phrase that should be clarified and not just left to stand on its own.

Hence why I prefer "Bearer of God" or "The Woman Who Gave Birth to God the Son", except that the latter, whilst being more theologically clear, is a bit of a mouthful. A more authentic (old) English equivalent of theotokos would be "God's Damm", except that sounds rude!

 

[Matt Black]

The rosary is not praying to God. It is magnifying Mary in the place of God. Nowhere in Scripture can you find such a prayer must be said IN ORDER TO BE saved as this demon taught!

So, saying the Lord's Prayer ten times isn't praying to God? I guess Jesus didn't get your memo...

 

[Matt Black]

Praying the rosary will bring salvation?

Will contemplating Christ, His accomplished work, your own sinfulness and need for Him bring salvation?