Martin Luther/Adolf Hitler

[Cathode]

Gosh! How many do you want? In no particular order:
Doctrine of the Mass

Mass has the same meaning then as now.

Penances

Penance is still the same practice in the Catholic Church.

Pilgrimages

Pilgrimages are still the same then as now.

Indulgences

Indulgences are still taught and granted in the Catholic Church.

Baptismal Regeneration

Baptism has always been believed as regeneration in the Catholic Church.

Auricular confession to a priest

Still the same practice today.

Equal Authority of Tradition to Scripture

The Spoken Word of God is still of the same force as the written word and explains the Written Word in Truth.

Seven sacraments

Nothing has changed.

Authority of the 'pope.'

Nothing changed, the Pope is still the visible Apostolic head of Christ’s Church.

Celibacy of priests

Still practiced so that the priest is singularly devoted to Gods work, and not divided in his responsibilities as Paul talked about.

 

[Blank]

Works do not play any part in justification,

I believe His Works do.

 

[Blank]

I was totally ignorant of the impact that the reformers had on RCC doctrine. Thanks for the info.

I would like to find a source that contrasts the "before and after" text of any one of these RCC doctrines.

psst., you might want to add the false teaching of Purgatory to that list.

 

[Blank]

I tend to view the church as a single tree, which expands the Covenantal divide between Old and New Testaments. Sometimes the tree branches out and in the case of the Catholics vs Protestants the trunk split. What's your flavor, Apostolic Succession (Catholic) or Apostolic Doctrine (Protestant)?

Don't forget the Great Divide of East/West a few centuries before the Reformation

 

[JonC]

Please share specific Catholic doctrine that the reformers reformed. I thought the Catholic's threw the reformers out along with their reforms.

I don't mean the Reformers reformed the Roman Catholic Church (the Roman Catholic Church reformed itself afterwards).

I mean the doctrine the Reformers took with them Cathokic doctrine, some they reformed others they did not.

They reworked the 13th century Roman Catholic (not Orthodox Catholic) view of Atonement (Martin Luther kept it, Calvin reworked it). They maintained the Catholic view of the Fall, of "original sin", reworked but maintained a lot of Roman Catholic ecclesiology, maintained the role of the church to government, maintained the structure of the Eucharist (we kinda do as well), etc.

 

[JonC]

I was totally ignorant of the impact that the reformers had on RCC doctrine. Thanks for the info.

I would like to find a source that contrasts the "before and after" text of any one of these RCC doctrines.

I disagree that the Reformers had that impact on the Roman Catholic Church. It appears to me that the Counter-Reformation came about in response to the Reformation, but this was to reinforce Roman Catholic doctrine as well as address some abuses (without changing doctrine). What they did was increase indoctrination, not adopt the doctrine of the Reformers.

 

[Christforums]

I went to a video called Amazing Grace: The history and theology of Calvinism. Anyone else see it? I typed this out from the historical narrative. Point being, the early church was mongergism and later church regressed to synergism:

Six years after the council of Carthage a general council of African Churches reaffirmed the anathemas of 412 AD. Zosimus sided with Pelagius in 412, he wrote a letter condemning the anathema of Carthage. Of course having the support of Scripture, the leaders of the Carthagian Council disregarded the Bishop and his letter. Philip Schaff noted church historian observes, "This temporary favor of the bishop of Rome towards the Pelagian heresy is a significant presage of the indulgence of later popes for pelagianizing tendencies". It was these later "pelagianizing tendencies" that lead to the works-righteousness advocated by the bishop of Rome that later led to the Roman Catholic belief system. This was a pivotal moment in church history. Cornelius Otto Jansen like Martin Luther believed the early Church of Rome departed from its position that all of life was by the grace of God. And like Augustine Jansen taught that man's spirit was dead in sin, and therefore needed to be regenerated. Jansen understood that this was something that happened to man by God's grace and not something man made happen by his faith. In 1713 Pope Clement the XI issued a Papal Bull denouncing over 100 statements, many of which were actual quotes of Augustine. A Church that once sided with Augustine now sided with Pelagius.

Source:

 

[Wesley Briggman]

What's your flavor, Apostolic Succession (Catholic) or Apostolic Doctrine (Protestant)?

I would identify more with the Anabaptist.

 

[Cathode]

psst., you might want to add the false teaching of Purgatory to that list.

Purgatory exists. Catholics have the same doctrine today, the Protestant rebellion didn’t change that.

 

[Cathode]

What's your flavor, Apostolic Succession (Catholic) or Apostolic Doctrine (Protestant)?

The Apostolic succession holds the Apostolic Doctrine.

Protestantism is conflicted human interpreted doctrines, teaching anything up to and including Jesus is a spaceman. It’s an incoherent mess of doctrines, each with a human founder, and not taught back to the Apostolic times.
All traditions of men, which scripture condemns by the way.

 

[Christforums]

The Apostolic succession holds the Apostolic Doctrine.

Protestantism is conflicted human interpreted doctrines, teaching anything up to and including Jesus is a spaceman. It’s an incoherent mess of doctrines, each with a human founder, and not taught back to the Apostolic times.
All traditions of men, which scripture condemns by the way.

And if the Vicar of Christ could settle every dispute there wouldn't be some 20+ rites of Catholicism. Of course the Pope is fallible therefore, Sola Scriptura is sufficient in settling matters in both life and doctrine.

And no, Catholics and their Apostolic Succession do not hold Apostolic Doctrine, they did however hold the Post Reformation buildings and property rights. Seen it today too, a denomination becomes too top heavy at the Federal level with the wrong men seated in authority and when a denomination splits the Federal denomination has the rights to the local property.

How any Pelagian can point the finger at somebody Reformed in theology and say what you had is, well, ignorant.

 

[Blank]

Purgatory exists. Catholics have the same doctrine today, the Protestant rebellion didn’t change that.

It exists only in the Apocrypha (noncanonical), otherwise, it is a good excuse for Indulgences and the financial support of mega Cathedrals.

 

[Blank]

Protestantism is conflicted human interpreted doctrines, teaching anything up to and including Jesus is a spaceman.

Following the Reformer's cry of 'sola scriptura', where do you suppose the Reformers came up with Jesus being a 'spaceman'?

 

[Christforums]

It exists only in the Apocrypha (noncanonical), otherwise, it is a good excuse for Indulgences and the financial support of mega Cathedrals.

Somebody has to fund all that art!
The Apocrypha was completed in the days of Jesus Christ but he never mentioned any of the books from the Apocrypha. How convenient though to reject Sola Scriptura and make an argument from silence for the Apocrypha.

 

[Cathode]

And if the Vicar of Christ could settle every dispute there wouldn't be some 20+ rites of Catholicism. Of course the Pope is fallible therefore, Sola Scriptura is sufficient in settling matters in both life and doctrine.

It's the Papacy that unites some 20+ rites. The rites simply are cultural expressions of the same Catholic faith under the Chair of Peter.

And no, Catholics and their Apostolic Succession do not hold Apostolic Doctrine, they did however hold the Post Reformation buildings and property rights. Seen it today too, a denomination becomes too top heavy at the Federal level with the wrong men seated in authority and when a denomination splits the Federal denomination has the rights to the local property.

The Apostolic successors are ones that preserved the scriptures from the Apostles and determined and canonised the Bible itself. They are the Authority behind the Canon, telling us what is the Word of God.

None of the human founded traditions of Protestantism did this. They founded their own churches doctrines based on their own subjective textual criticisms of the scripture that they did nothing to establish, they had nothing to do with the Bible.
Protestantism is human founded traditions preaching many different gospels of men, all in confliction with one another, they are a house divided against itself, built on the shifting sands of human opinion.

How any Pelagian can point the finger at somebody Reformed in theology and say what you had is, well, ignorant.

The Catholic Church condemned the Pelagian heresy at the Council of Carthage in 418 Ad.

No Protestants attended this Council.

 

[Cathode]

It exists only in the Apocrypha (noncanonical), otherwise, it is a good excuse for Indulgences and the financial support of mega Cathedrals.

No, it was Catholic doctrine long before there were cathedrals. The Church Fathers taught it clearly.
Saved, but only as through fire.

 

[Blank]

No, it was Catholic doctrine long before there were cathedrals. The Church Fathers taught it clearly.
Saved, but only as through fire.

So the 'Catholiics' went astray on that point early on?...

John 5:24 ESV
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

 

[Cathode]

Following the Reformer's cry of 'sola scriptura', where do you suppose the Reformers came up with Jesus being a 'spaceman'?

Scripture alone + each man’s interpretation = Dogs breakfast, everything is chucked into it.

A Bible aloner interpreted that because Jesus rose into heaven till He was out of sight at the ascension, he had to be a spaceman.
It was wackiest interpretation I had ever heard.

Bible aloners can’t be told different, because hey, they are getting their doctrines from the Bible.

Luther witnessed the wackiness he had opened with his new “scripture alone” idea.

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.” Martin Luther.

Who could have guessed that individual interpretation of scripture could have ended with so much wackiness.

Luther thought he was guided by The Holy Spirit for his doctrines from scripture, how many of you believe all of Luther’s inspired doctrines with your inspired interpretations of scripture.

If Luther was right and he was inspired in his interpretations of scripture, you should all have the same Holy Spirit guided interpretations and doctrines as Luther.

The fact that you don’t, proves “Scripture alone” false, and Luther was kidding himself.

 

[Cathode]

So the 'Catholiics' went astray on that point early on?...

John 5:24 ESV
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Everyone in Purgatory does have eternal life, they can’t be lost from there.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Faith working through Love as Paul says.

Not just intellectual assent, or just trust, but works of love.

The works a man must do is love, no love, no salvation.

Very briefly, because I have to be in church shortly, works are not what we do to be saved; they are what we do because we are saved. Listen, everyone: we cannot earn our way into heaven!! Before we are justified by faith ALONE, all our good deeds or righteous acts are like filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6) because they are mired by sin and therefore utterly unacceptable to Him (Habakkuk 1:13). But when we are saved, when we can say, "The LORD is my Shepherd," He will lead us in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake, and the Holy Spirit will cause us to do the 'Good works that God prepared in advance that we should walk in them' (Ephesians 2:10).
We must not tell people under conviction of sin "Go and straighten yourself out and then you can become a Christian." God forbid!
'If you wait until you're better
You will never come at all!
Not the righteous, not the righteous,
Sinners Jesus came to call!'