Martin Luther/Adolf Hitler

[Christforums]

God must first open the heart of the sinner before he or she will come to Christ.

Yes, G-d must first regenerate the natural man Ephesians 2:5 “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved) ”

The Ordo Salutis was and is the same both in the Old and New Testaments. This was the emphasis Jesus made to Nicodemus (teacher of Israel). Regeneration precedes faith (monergism).

 

[Cathode]

We should not be hating Roman Catholics, but praying for them, and trying to teach them the truth as it is in Christ Jesus.
'And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will' (2 Timothy 2:24-26).

That’s what I have been trying to do with people who have been manifesting hatred recently. People have been really vicious a lot more

Hatred is a manifestation of disconnection from God, just as Love makes us recognisable to God and man as Christian.

“By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another.”

Salvation requires an indivisible Trinity, Faith, Hope and Love, and the greatest of these is Love.

By our Love we are Judged.

 

[Christforums]

That’s what I have been trying to do with people who have been manifesting hatred recently. People have been really vicious a lot more

Hatred is a manifestation of disconnection from God, just as Love makes us recognisable to God and man as Christian.

“By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you have love one for another.”

Salvation requires an indivisible Trinity, Faith, Hope and Love, and the greatest of these is Love.

By our Love we are Judged.

No, but I'm sure Frank the Hippie Pope expresses love for the world. Men today are feminized and couldn't be made into fine instruments of warfare. Love G-d first and above all and that puts into perspective the love for neighbors. Even the love for our neighbor has limitations. The LGBT moved in next door to you.

Who and what G-d finds abominable we too should hate because we first love G-d. And, that does not mean we are not to be patient and kind, and suffer long, but rather we are not allies or "friends" with such people who regressed back to animalistic behavior.

 

[Cathode]

No, but I'm sure Frank the Hippie Pope expresses love for the world. Men today are feminized and couldn't be made into fine instruments of warfare. Love G-d first and above all and that puts into perspective the love for neighbors. Even the love for our neighbor has limitations. The LGBT moved in next door to you.

Who and what G-d finds abominable we too should hate.

Don’t do it mate, the new gospel of hate is not actually new.

 

[Cathode]

Go back to Jesus in your inner part, just tell Him you are sorry and you want have His Joy again. He will give you a draft of His Love, it changes everything.
Say, Father, please help me to see and understand.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

First I've heard of this. Please provide supporting documentation. Even so, he could not restore what was destroyed. Hitler never got the word!

My understanding is that Luther began by being friendly and supportive of the Jews. He hoped that when they saw someone being kind to them instead of persecuting them, as the Church of Rome did, they would be inclined to convert. However, the Jews (mostly) did not convert and Luther changed his tune quite radically in his dreadful book, The Jews and their lies. The only excuse for this that I have heard is that towards the end of his life Luther suffered badly with his bowels (we know this because he wrote about it) and this made him morose and judgmental. That is a pretty poor excuse, but it's all there is.

 

[JesusFan]

The Bible always needs an authoritive interpreter, it’s not self interpreting. Hence the conflicted mess of Bible alone theologies.

You then substitute Rome for the role of the Holy Spirit illuminating the scriptures to us now

 

[Christforums]

You then substitute Rome for the role of the Holy Spirit illuminating the scriptures to us now

Their priests sowed back up the curtain.

 

[Cathode]

You then substitute Rome for the role of the Holy Spirit illuminating the scriptures to us now

How are you more inspired by The Holy Spirit than the Bishops of all the Churches gathered together in The Lord’s Name?

It was these Bishops that determined the Canon of Scripture itself from the writings that were preserved in their Churches handed by preceding Bishops back to the Apostles.

We all rely on the fact that these Councils of Bishops were inspired by The Holy Spirit to determine the Bible itself, even the 66 books in Protestant bibles were all determined by Catholic Bishops in Council.

It was the Catholic Church that preserved all the scriptures from the Apostles through great persecutions, authenticating them, using them in Liturgy before creating the Canon at Catholic Councils.

Protestants had zero to do with the Bible, nothing. The Bible is Catholic, not only did Catholics preserve and determine the Canon, they maintain the same singular interpretation of them from the Apostles, by Apostolic Tradition.

The human founded traditions of men in Protestantism have every conflicting interpretation under the sun, and every conflicting doctrine, and they all claim to be inspired by The Holy Spirit.
Protestantism is manifestly wrong, if they were inspired by The Holy Spirit in interpretation of Scripture, they would be monolithic, united in one singular interpretation and doctrine, despite human frailty.

In fact if individual inspiration was true, every Protestant would be Lutheran, exactly following Luther’s original inspired interpretation, but even Lutherans are divided and don’t follow Luther’s interpretations and doctrines, let alone all the gaggle of other human founded traditions in interpretive conflict.

If Protestantism was completely and monolithically Lutheran, and everyone who read the Bible after Luther all interpreted the same thing as Luther, then it would be a manifest inspired marvel of God that proved Protestantism right.

The Bible would be the source of unity, but in Protestantism it is the source their disunity.

Say Catholic, and you know instantly what they believe, say ‘ Bible alone believer ‘ you don’t know what the hell they believe.

 

[kyredneck]

Can one be saved without being justified?

Stupid question.

Can one be justified and still end up condemned?

Another stupid question.

But God still justifies the ungodly without works (Romans 4:5).

Yes. God justified His own while they were still yet weak, sinners, and enemies.

Romans Chapter 5

6​	For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
7​	For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
8​	But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9​	Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10​	For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;

 

[Cathode]

“ Without the Catholic Church you have no Bible! “ Professor Peter Flint, Baptist translator of the Dead Sea scrolls.

 

[Cathode]

My understanding is that Luther began by being friendly and supportive of the Jews. He hoped that when they saw someone being kind to them instead of persecuting them, as the Church of Rome did, they would be inclined to convert. However, the Jews (mostly) did not convert and Luther changed his tune quite radically in his dreadful book, The Jews and their lies. The only excuse for this that I have heard is that towards the end of his life Luther suffered badly with his bowels (we know this because he wrote about it) and this made him morose and judgmental. That is a pretty poor excuse, but it's all there is.

Luther founded human based religion on his fallible human opinion of Scripture, doctrines formed from his uninspired textual criticism of scripture.
Many followed after forming their own human traditions.

 

[Cathode]

Read Luther and Mein Kampf together, you will see the same spirit in operation.

"The Jews are so hardened that they listen to nothing; though overcome by testimony, they yield not an inch. It is a pernicious race, oppressing all men by their usury and rapine. . . . We must ever be on our guard against them. . . . They have haughty prayers, in which they praise and call upon God, as if they alone were His people, cursing and condemning all other nations" (Table-Talk: Of the Jews). "It is necessary to study this infamous Jewish method with which they simultaneously, and from all directions, as at a given magic word, pour bucketfuls of the basest calumnies and defamation over the clean garb of honest people. . . ." (Mein Kampf: p. 109).

"The Jews read our books and from them raise objections against us; it is a nation that scorns and blasphemes, taking out of our writings the knowledge of our cause, and using the same as weapons against us" (Table-Talk: Of the Jews).

"The Jews again most slyly dupe the stupid Goiim [Gentiles]. They have no thought of building up a Jewish state in Palestine, so that they might perhaps inhabit it, but they only want a central organization of their international world cheating . . . a refuge for convicted rascals and a high school for future rogues" (Mein Kampf: p. 447).

"Burn down Jewish schools and synagogues, and throw pitch and sulphur into the flames; destroy their houses; confiscate their ready money; take from them their sacred books, even the whole Bible; forbid their holding any religious services under penalty of death; and if that does not help matters, hunt them out of the country like mad dogs" ("Tracts against Jews," 1543).

 

[JesusFan]

How are you more inspired by The Holy Spirit than the Bishops of all the Churches gathered together in The Lord’s Name?

It was these Bishops that determined the Canon of Scripture itself from the writings that were preserved in their Churches handed by preceding Bishops back to the Apostles.

We all rely on the fact that these Councils of Bishops were inspired by The Holy Spirit to determine the Bible itself, even the 66 books in Protestant bibles were all determined by Catholic Bishops in Council.

It was the Catholic Church that preserved all the scriptures from the Apostles through great persecutions, authenticating them, using them in Liturgy before creating the Canon at Catholic Councils.

Protestants had zero to do with the Bible, nothing. The Bible is Catholic, not only did Catholics preserve and determine the Canon, they maintain the same singular interpretation of them from the Apostles, by Apostolic Tradition.

The human founded traditions of men in Protestantism have every conflicting interpretation under the sun, and every conflicting doctrine, and they all claim to be inspired by The Holy Spirit.
Protestantism is manifestly wrong, if they were inspired by The Holy Spirit in interpretation of Scripture, they would be monolithic, united in one singular interpretation and doctrine, despite human frailty.

In fact if individual inspiration was true, every Protestant would be Lutheran, exactly following Luther’s original inspired interpretation, but even Lutherans are divided and don’t follow Luther’s interpretations and doctrines, let alone all the gaggle of other human founded traditions in interpretive conflict.

If Protestantism was completely and monolithically Lutheran, and everyone who read the Bible after Luther all interpreted the same thing as Luther, then it would be a manifest inspired marvel of God that proved Protestantism right.

The Bible would be the source of unity, but in Protestantism it is the source their disunity.

Say Catholic, and you know instantly what they believe, say ‘ Bible alone believer ‘ you don’t know what the hell they believe.

The 66 canonized books of the scriptures were all completed by end of first century, and were being circulated among the churches in second century, so Rome did not create the scriptures, but reaffirmed the inspired ones, and their grave mistake was to later add on non inspired books in order to "prove" Roman doctrines

And in Christ, I am equal in the sight of God to any pope or apostle as eternal luife and salvation made me a saint and priest to God as much as any of them were

And the Holy Spirit ceased to give any further revelations to us after Apostle John p[assed, and surely was n ot guiding and giving understanding to the Roman Popes and cardinals, as they made false teachings and doctrines, many of them heretical in nature

 

[JesusFan]

“ Without the Catholic Church you have no Bible! “ Professor Peter Flint, Baptist translator of the Dead Sea scrolls.

The early chriatians had the bible in forst and second centuries

 

[JesusFan]

Read Luther and Mein Kampf together, you will see the same spirit in operation.

"The Jews are so hardened that they listen to nothing; though overcome by testimony, they yield not an inch. It is a pernicious race, oppressing all men by their usury and rapine. . . . We must ever be on our guard against them. . . . They have haughty prayers, in which they praise and call upon God, as if they alone were His people, cursing and condemning all other nations" (Table-Talk: Of the Jews). "It is necessary to study this infamous Jewish method with which they simultaneously, and from all directions, as at a given magic word, pour bucketfuls of the basest calumnies and defamation over the clean garb of honest people. . . ." (Mein Kampf: p. 109).

"The Jews read our books and from them raise objections against us; it is a nation that scorns and blasphemes, taking out of our writings the knowledge of our cause, and using the same as weapons against us" (Table-Talk: Of the Jews).

"The Jews again most slyly dupe the stupid Goiim [Gentiles]. They have no thought of building up a Jewish state in Palestine, so that they might perhaps inhabit it, but they only want a central organization of their international world cheating . . . a refuge for convicted rascals and a high school for future rogues" (Mein Kampf: p. 447).

"Burn down Jewish schools and synagogues, and throw pitch and sulphur into the flames; destroy their houses; confiscate their ready money; take from them their sacred books, even the whole Bible; forbid their holding any religious services under penalty of death; and if that does not help matters, hunt them out of the country like mad dogs" ("Tracts against Jews," 1543).

read the Roman Inquisistion period, as Rome had true Christians burnt at stake, behanded, tortured all due to them daring to preach and teach the true Gospel. not the one of Rome

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Stupid question.



Another stupid question.

Indeed. I wonder why you were asking it.

Yes. God justified His own while they were still yet weak, sinners, and enemies.

Romans Chapter 5

Yes indeed! Justification by faith alone!

6​	For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
7​	For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
8​	But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9​	Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10​	For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;

 

[Christforums]

The 66 canonized books of the scriptures were all completed by end of first century, and were being circulated among the churches in second century, so Rome did not create the scriptures, but reaffirmed the inspired ones, and their grave mistake was to later add on non inspired books in order to "prove" Roman doctrines

And in Christ, I am equal in the sight of God to any pope or apostle as eternal luife and salvation made me a saint and priest to God as much as any of them were

And the Holy Spirit ceased to give any further revelations to us after Apostle John p[assed, and surely was n ot guiding and giving understanding to the Roman Popes and cardinals, as they made false teachings and doctrines, many of them heretical in nature

Right, the problem was the Gnostic Gospels, and like Gnosticism the question whether Apostolic Succession could result in non Gnostic but additional Christian writings. The circulation of NT cannon writings was not questionable, but other writings and whether 3rd, 4th, 5th persons etc were indeed Apostolic. Basically, Luke the Historian was the last not directly taught by Jesus but directly by an Apostle.

Likewise, a lot of books were questionable and the early struggle whether or not to reject Revelation, but if that's the standard remember the early church wanted to reject the holiest of all books in the OT, the Songs of Solomon because the perversions of the church were seen "in it".

No more Revelation! The revelatory process was for a time in building up the NT church and why we have NT writings to edify our gentile churches.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, G-d must first regenerate the natural man Ephesians 2:5 “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved) ”

The Ordo Salutis was and is the same both in the Old and New Testaments. This was the emphasis Jesus made to Nicodemus (teacher of Israel). Regeneration precedes faith (monergism).

This is where we disagree somewhat. I see regeneration as a process rather than an all-in-one process. Some theologians, notably John Murray (Redemption, Accomplished and Applied), have placed it right after calling, on the grounds that, if the call is effectual, regeneration must have taken place. This view, however, leads to difficulty. There are several scriptures which speak of people who have gone some way along the road of salvation and then turned back (eg. Matt. 13:20f; Heb. 6:4ff). Nicodemus himself might be described as ‘awakened’ since he took the trouble to seek out Jesus; but his conversation with the Lord (John 3:4, 9) shows that he was a long way from ‘seeing’ the Kingdom of God. it appears that someone can become interested in Christianity, be concerned about his sin and even be quite intrigued with the Gospel, but later lose interest and fall away completely. Such people cannot have been born again since true conversion is a work of God and as such cannot be lost (John 10: 28-29), and yet there seems to have been some work upon their hearts. Moreover, if we think of regeneration as an instantaneous event, then preaching the Gospel becomes superfluous; either people are regenerate, in which case they are saved already, or else they are spiritually dead and cannot respond to the Gospel call. A better way of viewing regeneration is to see it as a process which commences with God’s call and ends with His pronouncement of justification, up to which point it is possible for someone to fall away, but after which they are saved forever.

So we might have an Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) which looks like this:-

Foreknowledge
Predestination
Effectual Calling___________________________________
Awakening
Conviction REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH)
Repentance & Faith
Justification_______________________________________
Sealing
Adoption
Sanctification
Glorification

I see repentance and faith as being two sides of the same coin (cf. Mark 1:15). Saving faith is a repentant faith, and repentance must be a believing repentance otherwise it is mere remorse.
Anyway, that's why IMO the Scripture speaks of God opening Lydia's heart rather than regenerating her.

It might be better if this post were made into a new thread rather than diverting thought away from this one. I leave that to the Mods.

 

[Christforums]

This is where we disagree somewhat. I see regeneration as a process rather than an all-in-one process. Some theologians, notably John Murray (Redemption, Accomplished and Applied), have placed it right after calling, on the grounds that, if the call is effectual, regeneration must have taken place. This view, however, leads to difficulty. There are several scriptures which speak of people who have gone some way along the road of salvation and then turned back (eg. Matt. 13:20f; Heb. 6:4ff). Nicodemus himself might be described as ‘awakened’ since he took the trouble to seek out Jesus; but his conversation with the Lord (John 3:4, 9) shows that he was a long way from ‘seeing’ the Kingdom of God. it appears that someone can become interested in Christianity, be concerned about his sin and even be quite intrigued with the Gospel, but later lose interest and fall away completely. Such people cannot have been born again since true conversion is a work of God and as such cannot be lost (John 10: 28-29), and yet there seems to have been some work upon their hearts. Moreover, if we think of regeneration as an instantaneous event, then preaching the Gospel becomes superfluous; either people are regenerate, in which case they are saved already, or else they are spiritually dead and cannot respond to the Gospel call. A better way of viewing regeneration is to see it as a process which commences with God’s call and ends with His pronouncement of justification, up to which point it is possible for someone to fall away, but after which they are saved forever.

So we might have an Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) which looks like this:-

Foreknowledge
Predestination
Effectual Calling___________________________________
Awakening
Conviction REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH)
Repentance & Faith
Justification_______________________________________
Sealing
Adoption
Sanctification
Glorification

I see repentance and faith as being two sides of the same coin (cf. Mark 1:15). Saving faith is a repentant faith, and repentance must be a believing repentance otherwise it is mere remorse.
Anyway, that's why IMO the Scripture speaks of God opening Lydia's heart rather than regenerating her.

It might be better if this post were made into a new thread rather than diverting thought away from this one. I leave that to the Mods.

What does opening the heart of Lydia mean if not giving her a heart after G-d, a new heart not of stone (reprobate) but rather flesh? Ezekiel 36

The Ordo Salutis you pointed out is from the Arminian camp a heresy which rose up in the Reformed church and Calvinism was the response to that particular synergism a regression back to Rome. Man must pull himself up halfway to G-d by his bootstraps before G-d finished what man began rather than G-d being the author and finisher of salvation (monergism).

I don't care about disagreements and believe in Limited Atonement, not a drop of blood was wasted by whom for whosoever the blood was not intended. The Ordo Salutis the Orthodox order of salvation is biblically true and correct. Man tends to order things by his "awareness" of what occurred, but the Ordo Salutis began before man was born, there's no climbing back into the womb for forensic investigation. A man must place himself in the center of investigation (not theology) to use that Ordo Salutis and reject the first couple of chapters of Ephesians for it to be true.