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Mary was probably a nice person???

tamborine lady

Active Member
Hi there Doubting Thomas,

You said:

Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ.

My answer is, no it doesn't put her on the same level as Jesus, It puts her above Him and that is worse!!!

My friends that I ask to pray for me are ALIVE! MARY is dead!! Big differance!

Tam
 

Debby in Philly

Active Member
Deuteronomy 18:9-13

9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD , and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

Might not praying to Mary or other dead saint be the same as one who "consults the dead" as show above?
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Hi there Doubting Thomas,

You said:

Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ.

My answer is, no it doesn't put her on the same level as Jesus, It puts her above Him and that is worse!!!
Oh really, in what way? How does asking one to pray to Christ put that one on the same level as (or higher than!) Christ? I'm not following that "logic".

My friends that I ask to pray for me are ALIVE! MARY is dead!! Big differance!
Actually the big difference is not that Mary isn't alive, but that she (and the other glorified saints) are more alive than we are. Christ through his death and resurrection defeated death, so that now we are one family whether in heaven or earth (Eph 3:15). God is the Lord not of the dead but the living (Matt 22:32) and that includes those who are with Him in heaven--including Mary. When we worship God we do so in the presence of that glorious company of angels and saints who are worshipping God in Heaven (Hebrews 12:22-24).
 

chipsgirl

New Member
Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ. (When you ask your friends to intercede for you, are you thereby putting them on Christ's level?) Honoring Mary and the saints is simply honoring those whom God has honored. [/QB]
That makes it sound like you think some people are more important to God than others. He loves us all the same. Only one is pure and that's Jesus.
I would like to know the Catholic definition of a saint.
 

music4Him

New Member
quote By: Doubting Thomas
__________________________________________________
Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ. (When you ask your friends to intercede for you, are you thereby putting them on Christ's level?) Honoring Mary and the saints is simply honoring those whom God has honored.
__________________________________________________

Mary physically died and didn't shed her blood for forgivness of our sins, nor did she rise agian on the 3rd day and asscend into heaven to sit on the right hand side of the throne of God to interceed for us. There is only one who took the weight of sin thats in the world on His shoulders and by doing that (i.e. what I mentioned above that Mary didn't do) we can pray directly to God and cry "Abba Father", and Jesus interceeds for us. Wow! BTW, I'm not one that likes to mess around and waste time....I go directly to #1! :D
I don't see where its alright to pray to Mary or any saint? BTW, in Seventh Day Adventist doctrine she'd be sleeping until the rapture. What if the SDA has that part right? Then that totally blows your doctrine out of the water.
flower.gif


Music4Him
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by music4Him:
[QB] quote By: Doubting Thomas
__________________________________________________
Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ. (When you ask your friends to intercede for you, are you thereby putting them on Christ's level?) Honoring Mary and the saints is simply honoring those whom God has honored.
__________________________________________________

Mary physically died and didn't shed her blood for forgivness of our sins, nor did she rise agian on the 3rd day and asscend into heaven to sit on the right hand side of the throne of God to interceed for us.
I never said she did any of these things. You're creating a straw man.
There is only one who took the weight of sin thats in the world on His shoulders and by doing that (i.e. what I mentioned above that Mary didn't do) we can pray directly to God and cry "Abba Father", and Jesus interceeds for us.
Of course, this is all true. Christ is our Saviour and we can pray directly to him (I never said we couldn't) But if by this you mean we can never ask anyone else to intercede for us, then I hope you are being consistent and never ask anyone to pray for you.
Wow! BTW, I'm not one that likes to mess around and waste time....I go directly to #1! :D
Well then I guess you never "mess around" and "waste time" by asking folks to pray for you. Nor if you are consistent do you ever pray for others who ask that of you. I can just hear you saying to : "Don't bother me with your prayer requests! Take it directly to God!".... :rolleyes: (I sincerely hope that's not true)

I don't see where its alright to pray to Mary or any saint?
I don't see where it says we can't. Again, "pray" here means to ask, and one can ask their intercessions just like one may ask intercession of our Christian family members on earth to pray for us. Again, the Church is one family on earth and in heaven (Eph 3:15). As our brothers, sisters, and fathers and mothers in Christ, why would the saints stop praying for us in Heaven when they are unhindered by earthly distractions?
BTW, in Seventh Day Adventist doctrine she'd be sleeping until the rapture. What if the SDA has that part right? Then that totally blows your doctrine out of the water.
flower.gif
I'm not too worried about the SDA's being right about that or about many other "doctrines".
 

menageriekeeper

Active Member
originally posted by TP
Greetings,

You asked: Ah, but can you give me any scripture reference where one of the apostles prayed(or asked if you prefer) someone who was already dead to intercede with God on their behalf.


Response: Jesus
Really? You mean Jesus prayed to someone who was dead to intercede with God on his behalf? Yeah, right.

I expect you mean that the apostles prayed to Jesus after his death. Well I have some good news for you. Jesus didn't stay dead nor is He dead now. He is very much alive and was quite alive in the human form when he left this earth. The apostles prayed to a living Saviour, not a dead one.

Let's go back to talking to dead folk. It seems Saul tried that once, it cost him his life. (I Sam. 28)

Is there really any difference between what Saul did then and what people do now when they pray to the dead? All you are doing is putting the medium out of a job.
 
T

TP

Guest
Greetings,

You said about Jesus: Well I have some good news for you. Jesus didn't stay dead nor is He dead now. He is very much alive and was quite alive in the human form when he left this earth.

Response: Well I also have good news for you: Those who die in Christ also rise with Christ. They are also very much alive. Since they are alive, they are able to pray.

peace
 

music4Him

New Member
Music4Him said......
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is only one who took the weight of sin thats in the world on His shoulders and by doing that (i.e. what I mentioned above that Mary didn't do) we can pray directly to God and cry "Abba Father", and Jesus interceeds for us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**************************************************
Doubting Thomas replied.......
Of course, this is all true. Christ is our Saviour and we can pray directly to him (I never said we couldn't) But if by this you mean we can never ask anyone else to intercede for us, then I hope you are being consistent and never ask anyone to pray for you.
*************************************************
I have asked people to pray "with" me. Thats a BIG difference! We still pray according to scripture.....
Mt 18:19 -
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Thats called prayer of agreement in our church and the ones doing the agreeing have to be alive and pray to the Lord. ;)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow! BTW, I'm not one that likes to mess around and waste time....I go directly to #1!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well then I guess you never "mess around" and "waste time" by asking folks to pray for you. Nor if you are consistent do you ever pray for others who ask that of you. I can just hear you saying to : "Don't bother me with your prayer requests! Take it directly to God!".... (I sincerely hope that's not true)


Refer back to the prayer of agreement. If I ask people to pray it will be people praying with me in agreement. Now if people pray for me individually during their own prayer time. (I also believe you can pray for people this way because Paul did.) I would hope they are praying in agreement as to what I'm praying and believing for and they will pray to the Lord and not to Mary.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see where its alright to pray to Mary or any saint?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't see where it says we can't. Again, "pray" here means to ask, and one can ask their intercessions just like one may ask intercession of our Christian family members on earth to pray for us. Again, the Church is one family on earth and in heaven (Eph 3:15). As our brothers, sisters, and fathers and mothers in Christ, why would the saints stop praying for us in Heaven when they are unhindered by earthly distractions?


Eph. 3:15 is a prayer of realization so it should be read as a whole in its context.

Eph. 3:14-21
14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Now will you realize (Who) it is that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think? Who should we ask or go to in prayer? Who's name is above all names why would anyone knowing that they can ask Jesus directly, instead of asking or praying to Mary to ask Jesus to help us? You also said you don't see anywhere thats says we can't pray to Mary or any saint. If it was ok then you might have caught Paul, Peter, John or any of the others who prayed after the assention of Jesus. Jesus stated quite clearly when the disciples asked him to teach them how to pray.....(ie) Our Father which art in heaven.~Matthew 6:9~ Just think about it.



Music4Him

[ January 13, 2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: music4Him ]
 

Debby in Philly

Active Member
Originally posted by Debby in Philly:
Deuteronomy 18:9-13

9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD , and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

Might not praying to Mary or other dead saint be the same as one who "consults the dead" as show above?
I don't "pray" when I ask my friends and family to pray for me, because I can communicate directly with them; they're here on earth, like me.

But when we PRAY, we supposedly are contacting someone in the spiritual world. And the only one I should be contacting in that area is GOD himself. My ability to do that comes from my standing with God because of Jesus' having redeemed me.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Tammy said
it is clear that many who lost their lives to the RC inquisitors - were doing so out of refusal to worship Mary.
Possibly a reference to Fox's Book of Martyrs.

TP said
Response: This is a boldface falsehood. Worshipping Mary is a Sin and nobody would ever be put to death for not sinning. Also, you seem to throw out the inquisitor thing pretty quickly. Please show me a documented court record from the inquisition where ANYONE was put to death for a marian issue. People throw out "RC inquisitors" as if it were a universally known fact. Well, I want evidence or don't use that arguement.
#1 What is your position on the crimes of the RCC during the dark ages as it relates to the inquisition?

Was it a good thing - or a bad thing?

#2. Is it your claim that although they committed these crimes against humanity - they never would have comitted them regarding worship "at Mary's altars"??

#3. Are you aware that asking for the RC record of "confession" AT the time they were comitting the crime - is like asking that the mass murderer keep a log and write down "I am murdering this person now" for each crime RATHER than trusting the investigators that come along aftewards and discover the crime?

even so...


Consider the following news stories from the Vatican City.




Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES


.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP) –
The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history.

The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins.

For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake for heresy and other crimes.

``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.

Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened.

``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium.

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.

Etchegaray on Thursday swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities. There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was undeniably an ecclesiastical institution.

The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference.

About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.

AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST



Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni


VATICAN CITY, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors.

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.

``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching.

Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000.

The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherences...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium.

Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics
.

While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history.

He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992.

19:01 10-29-98
In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
We could persue this on a RC Crimes in the Dark Ages thread if you prefer.

Back to the topic of Mary --

The RCC says that she is sinless - the Bible does not.

The Bible says that Stephen was "full of grace" Acts 6:8 -- was he born sinless too?

No disciple is on record as praying to Mary or telling anyone else to pray to her or calling her "Mother of God" -- is that simply because it was not something they taught - or is it because they wanted it to be a secret or is it because it was not as important as other things like instructions about offerings and bringing a coat when you go some place or picking up some books along the way?

A number of people are mentioned as being raised from the dead - but not Mary. Not one word about the assumption of Mary or anything -- is that because the other incidents of resurrection in the NT were "more important" or is it because the RCC did not even think to invent that story until many centuries after Mary died?

In Christ,

Bob
 
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