Matt. 25:30

[Craigbythesea]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
The millennium is not in view in any of these verses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it is. Most of the warnings are about the kingdom of heaven/God, which can be nothing else other than the millennium.

No, the warnings have absolutely nothing to do with the millennium. There is not the slightest shred of evidence that the disciples of Jesus had any concept at all of a future millennial kingdom, and if the many warnings were in reference to it, Jesus certainly would have taught his disciples about the millennium in such a manner that they would have at least grasped the basic idea of it.

In all four of the Gospels Jesus pictured only two choices: Heaven or hell. The disciples believed in a future, physical kingdom in which the Romans government would cease to rule over them and in which Christ would be their king. They did not expect this reign to last for only a thousand years, but for eternity. This belief was a false belief and very different from the millennium of The Revelation.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

I want to tell you about 1 Cor. 3:15. Baptist pastors use 1 Cor. 3:11-15 to prove for the evidence of security salvatiuon, no one shall lose salvation. Because of verse 15 says,: "but he himself shall be SAVED..." They syaing, it proves us, no Christian shall lose their salvation, but loss rewards at the judgement seat of Christ. I heard them many times.

I want you to read verse 15 very carefully. "IF any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT he himself SHALL BE saved; yet so as by fire."

I realized, there are two parts in this verse 15. First, the first part of the sentence of verse 15 says, "IF any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:" It paused there. The first part of verse 15 speaks of any individual who shall suffer loss by the result of test through fire. I believe it speak of lost person. Second, the last part of verse 15 speaks of another individual who is faithful and who shall pass the test by fire- SHALL BE SAVED. Notice, it says, 'shall be saved' is a future sense.

That mean, we are not offically saved already while we are living on earth. Our real salvation will be offically saved at the end after our death, IF we endure all the way to the end - Matt. 10:22; and Matt 24:13.

Notice, there are two parts or divided in verse 15. Notice one important thing shows in the middle of the sentence - (:), I believe it shows us, the first part of the sentence paused after it speak of any individual who shall suffer loss. THEN, the last part of the sentence speak of another individual who will pass the test in the fire, SHALL BE SAVED. It speaks of future final state of salvation after the result of the test in the fire(judgement seat of Christ).

Also, notice word, 'BUT' after the first part of the sentence of verse 15. I understand word, 'but' shows it means the opposite of thing.

I know of good examples on 'BUT' speak of opposite things, we have to read in the book of Proverbs in the Old Testament.

There are few examples of Proverbs on 'BUT':

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man: BUT the end thereof are the ways of death." It speaks of opposite. Person thinks, he seems that his life is everything fine, no problem, but his ways are on the way to end is destruction.

Another example:

"The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: BUT the prayer of the upright is his delight." - Proverbs 15:8

The first part of the sentence of verse 8 speaks of wicked person, then the last part of the sentence speaks of just person.

Book of Proverbs have LOT of 'BUT''s, these showing us, of many opposite ways between just and wicked.

I believe the first part of 1 Cor. 3:15 speak of any individual shall suffer loss after the result of test in the fire -shall not be saved.

At the last part of verse 15 speaks of any individual who faithful, and passed the test in the fire, SHALL BE SAVED. It speaks of future sense.

We are not offically "saved" now while we are living on earth. We are on the war walking on the road on the way toward narrow road toward eternal life - Matt 7:14; and ***Luke 13:24 too! Once we enter the finish line in the race, then we shall be offically victory. Right now, our life is still in war, our victory is not yet arrive till our death - Matt 10:22; and Matt. 24:13. IF we abide, endure all the way through our life keep on fight with our faith till our death, then we shall be victory and have eternal life. OR..... IF we stopped in the half way on the road, and give up, back to world again, and not repent till our death, then we will not victory, and shall NOT be saved at the end.

Bartholomew,

Yes, it is. Most of the warnings are about the Kingdom of heaven/God, which can be nothing elase other than the millennium

The problem is, Christ never saying 'kingdom of God/heaven' means millennium kingdom. Because Christ does NOT saying 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the four gospels while he was doing three years of ministry on earth. I understand 'kingdom of God/heaven' speak of eternality kingdom, also, eternal life too.

Good example - John 3:3,7 tell us, we MUST be born again, OR.... we cannot have eternal life.

criagbythesea,

No, the warnings have absolutely nothing to do with the millennium. There is not the slightest shred of evidence that the disciples of Jesus had any concept of all of a future millennial Kingdom..."

Correct!! Christ does not teaching to his disciples about the supposed future millennial kingdom, because He never saying a word, "a thousand years" find anywhere in the four gospels.

They did not expect this reign to last for a thousand years, but for eternality.

Correct!! BUT..... you saying,

This belief was a FALSE belief and very different from the millennium of the Revelation

Firstly, throughout all 65 books in the Bible never mentioned about future millennial kingdom, they never hear it before. While Christ was on earth, He taught them, this age shall be end when He comes with his angels, all unbelievers shall be cast into everlasting fire. No one shall be survived after Christ's coming. Also, Christ does NOT teaching them, "a thousand years" anywhere in the four gospels.

Many saying Revelation chapter 20 is a progessive revelation. Means, it was new thing to Apostle John, that he never hear before in his vision.

Understand, book of Revelation is full of heavy symbols and figurative meanings.

I was suppose to start a new topic about 'Thousand years' long time, but I have not start it yet. I am busy, and working on millennium is a lot to do with verses.

Revelation chapter 20 is a heavily symbol meaning, and figurative meanings. I promise I will start a new topic on millennium later, not know when, maybe next week.

'Outer darkness' is very clear speak of everlasting punishment, NOT temporary. Christ does NOT saying 'outer darkness' is a tmpeorary.

Notice, 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' of Matt 25:30. It must be speaking of great painful and torments. It must be speak of suffering in the everlasting fire.

Matt 13:40-42- "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furance of FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matt. 12:40-42 speak clear of everlasting fire, that they will be suffering there, it is not temporary.

Christ will say to them: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels:" - Matt. 13:41. It is very clear speak of everlasting punishment, not temporary.

"And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT:" - Matt. 25:46.

It is very, very clear speak of send them into everlasting punishment, no one shall be release out of it. Same with Matt. 25:30, Christ shall say to the wicked and slothful servants, go into 'outer darkness', and weeping with gnashing of teeth there. No unfaithful servant shall be release out of it. There is NO promise of Matt 25:30, that unfaithful servant will be release out of 'outer darkness'. Obivously, 'outer darkness' is a eternality punishment.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You see, it is by faith AND works that one is justified at the judgement seat.

At the judgment seat?????? Where do you find this in James?</font>[/QUOTE]The very verse that I quoted. Where does it say, "Great White Throne"? It doesn't. Look at the judgement - Christians can be judeged without mercy if they show no mercy. This is NOT on the basis of faith.

How many times do you believe a person needs to be justified in God’s sight to spend eternity with Christ after death?

He needs to be justified ONCE (by faith) to be saved in all eternity. This happened to Abraham when he believed. HOWEVER, he needs a justification that is by works to be allowed into the millennium. For Abraham, this happened YEARS after the eternal justification (James 2):

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

No, the warnings have absolutely nothing to do with the millennium. There is not the slightest shred of evidence that the disciples of Jesus had any concept at all of a future millennial kingdom, and if the many warnings were in reference to it, Jesus certainly would have taught his disciples about the millennium in such a manner that they would have at least grasped the basic idea of it.

They DID grasp the basic idea of it. Almost everyone did. God would send a king who would rule Israel, restored to their land, etc. The Old Testament was crystal-clear. And Jesus spoke in clear terms too - the kingdom was something physical that would come in the future. The vast majority of NT scriptures about the kingdom attest to this.

In all four of the Gospels Jesus pictured only two choices: Heaven or hell.

No. He gave two choices: kingdom or hell. He didn't talk about "going to heaven". This idea of all saved people "going to heaven forever" seems to have its origins in Roman Catholicism. But wherever it came from, it's not Biblical. The immeadiate hope set before us is the kingdom; then the New Earth. Note that the tabernacle of God comes OUT of heaven, DOWN to earth!!! And if you don't go to the New Earth, you go to the Lake of Fire. Rev. 20 CLEARLY shows us hell has an end, and the wicked spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Well, may I say Craig that I am pleased you found what I gave you helpful. You may think these men were heretics, dangerous, or whatever, but the word of God stands, and kingdom exclusion is obvious. If you work against the teaching of these men it will be a shame, for I am convinced you will be working against the truth. I do not think that will be a good position to be in at the judgement seat. However, it is clear we can not agree on this subject. If you reject the coming millennial kingdom, you must reject this truth taught be Neighbour, Govett, et al, so there is no point talking any more about it. I do not want a debate - nor do I really have time. Debates where people are not willing to change their minds are pointless. I am not willing to believe amillennialism. The bible (and Chrsitian history) are FAR too clear that premillennialism is true. If you were to convince me otherwise, it would take a LONG time.

I wish you and Deaf Post Trib well. We may totally disagree, but I think you are my brothers.

In His name,

Bartholomew

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Bartholomew,

My time is not permit to make this post to reply back to you. I have to go to work now - 3rd shift job. I will reply it back to you tomorrow.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

You may think these men were heretics, dangerous, or whatever, but the word of God stands, and kingdom exclusion is obvious. If you work against the teaching of these men it will be a shame, for I am convinced you will be working against the truth.

Bartholomew,

My mind is not made up regarding the pre-millennial view. In fact, I lean strongly toward the pre-millennial view. The doctrine of “kingdom exclusion”, however, is new to me and I want to learn more about it, especially the early history of it, and who is teaching it now, and in what form they are teaching it. The only writer on this that I am familiar with in any detail in Zane Hodges. All the evidence that I have seen points to him being a dangerous heretic. As for the men who preceded him, I want to learn more about their views.

Up till this point in my life I have not seriously studied the millennium. I know that from day one in church history there was much disagreement about it. I am more interested in finding out where you and I have common ground than I am finding out where we differ. As for the phrase, “outer darkness,” the oldest comments that I have found so far were written by Tertullian (145-220). He wrote:


On the Resurrection of the Flesh

XXXV. EXPLANATION OF WHAT IS MEANT BY THE BODY, WHICH IS TO BE RAISED AGAIN. NOT THE CORPOREALITY OF THE SOUL.

But He also teaches us, that "He is rather to be feared, who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell," that is, the Lord alone; "not those which kill the body, but are not able to hurt the soul," that is to say, all bureau powers. Here, then, we have a recognition of the natural immortality of the soul, which cannot be killed by men; and of the mortality of the body, which may be killed: whence we learn that the resurrection of the dead is a resurrection of the flesh; for unless it were raised again, it would be impossible for the flesh to be "killed in hell." But as a question may be here captiously raised about the meaning of "the body" (or "the flesh "), I will at once state that I understand by the human body nothing else than that fabric of the flesh which, whatever be the kind of material of which it is constructed and modified, is seen and handled, and sometimes indeed killed, by men. In like manner, I should not admit that anything but cement and stones and bricks form the body of a wall. If any one imports into our argument some body of a subtle, secret nature, he must show, disclose, and prove to me that identical body is the very one which was slain by human violence, and then (I will grant) that it is of such a body that (our scripture) speaks. If, again, the body or corporeal nature of the soul is cast in my teeth. it will only be an idle subterfuge! For since both substances are set before us (in this passage, which affirms) that "body and soul" are destroyed in bell, a distinction is obviously made between the two; and we are left to understand the body to be that which is tangible to us, that is, the flesh, which, as it will be destroyed in hell since it did not "rather fear" being destroyed by God so also will it be restored to life eternal, since it preferred to be killed by human hands. If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him then admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. He will then come to the conclusion that substances must be eternal, when their penal "killing" is an eternal one. Since, then, the body after the resurrection has to be killed by God in hell along with the soul, we surely have sufficient information in this fact respecting both the issues which await it, namely the resurrection of the flesh, and its eternal "killing." Else it would be most absurd if the flesh should be raised up and destined to "the killing in hell," in order to be put an end to, when it might suffer such an annihilation (more directly) if not raised again at all. A pretty paradox, to be sure, that an essence must be refitted with life, in order that it may receive that annihilation which has already in fact accrued to it! But Christ, whilst confirming us in the selfsame hope, adds the example of "the sparrows" how that "not one of them falls to the ground without the will of God." He says this, that you may believe that the flesh which has been consigned to the ground, is able in like manner to rise again by the will of the same God. For although this is not allowed to the sparrows, yet "we are of more value than many sparrows," for the very reason that, when fallen, we rise again. He affirms, lastly, that "the very hairs of our head are all numbered," and ir the affirmation He of course includes the promise of their safety; for if they were to be lost, where would be the use of having taken such a numerical care of them? Surely the only use lies (in this truth): "That of all which the Father hath given to me, I should lose none," not even a hair, as also not an eye nor a tooth. And yet whence shall come that "weeping and gnashing of teeth," if not from eyes and teeth? even at that time when the body shall be slain in hell, and thrust out into that outer darkness which shall be the suitable torment of the eyes. He also who shall not be clothed at the marriage feast in the raiment of good works, will have to be " bound hand and foot," as being, of course, raised in his body. So, again, the very reclining at the feast in the kingdom of God, and sitting on Christ's thrones, and standing at last on His right hand and His left, and eating of the tree of life: what are all these but most certain proofs of a bodily appointment and destination?

 

[Craigbythesea]

It is very, very clear speak of send them into everlasting punishment, no one shall be release out of it. Same with Matt. 25:30, Christ shall say to the wicked and slothful servants, go into 'outer darkness', and weeping with gnashing of teeth there. No unfaithful servant shall be release out of it. There is NO promise of Matt 25:30, that unfaithful servant will be release out of 'outer darkness'. Obivously, 'outer darkness' is a eternality punishment.

This all seems very clear to me also. There is an excellent article regarding this matter at the following address:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/faust.htm

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
My mind is not made up regarding the pre-millennial view. In fact, I lean strongly toward the pre-millennial view. The doctrine of “kingdom exclusion”, however, is new to me and I want to learn more about it, especially the early history of it, and who is teaching it now, and in what form they are teaching it. The only writer on this that I am familiar with in any detail in Zane Hodges. All the evidence that I have seen points to him being a dangerous heretic. As for the men who preceded him, I want to learn more about their views.

Craig,

If you are truly interested in learning more about the "kingdom exclusion" doctrine, here is a very good (and free) place to start.

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline.htm

http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/otherworks.htm

I highly recommend the Panton book and, if you can read a long book on the PC, the SS Craig book.

Lacy Evans

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
This all seems very clear to me also. There is an excellent article regarding this matter at the following address:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/faust.htm [/QB]

Quite frankly, Craig, in this article the writer seems to be one who either just skimmed Faust's book or else ignored most of its arguments altogether. I found the article very misleading and its arguments very weak.

It is evident in Acts 2:6,7 that the disciples fully expected a future literal reign of Christ. If it were not going to happen, then what a wonderful opportunity for Christ to straighten them out doctrinally. "Oh the Kingdom is not literal, not future, it is a only spiritual thing and we are in it now." But he makes no such correction. The disciples expected the Kingdom. They expected Christ to reign. So where is it? Revelation describes him reigning for 1000 years after his literal, bodily return. It is crystal clear.

Now in Matt 25 (ch 18, 24, etc) we have repeated warnings associated with his coming and the believers watchfulness (or lack thereof). Also we repeatedly see the phrase "The Kingdom of heaven is like". What else could it be referring to?

You questioned the temporal nature of the "outer darkness". I'll admit that the idea is not found directly stated in Matt 25, but please notice: Matt 24:42, 25:14,26 all indicate that the subjects of the warning, (the context, if you will) are believers. Now if you go back a few chapters, to Matt 18, it becomes even more clear.

Matt 18:1,21 Who was listening? The disciples. Matt 18:21 Specifically Peter.
Matt 18: 8, 9, What was the threat? Hell fire.
Matt 18:32 I forgave thee all. . .
Matt 18:30, 34,35 'till he should pay ALL that was due. Then what? This is a clear testimony as to the temporal nature of God's Fatherly chastening.

It is temporary. Why is Rev 20:15 even there (if nobody comes out who WAS written in the book of life?) If I worked at the the animal shelter and I was told that whichever animal was not a dog was going to be destroyed, would that imply that no dogs are there at the shelter, or rather that all the dogs will be spared?

It seems harsh. But so did my daddy when he got me with his belt. I knew a whipping was temporary. I don't recall ever having been given the choice as to its specific duration or severity.

Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

It is evident in Acts 2:6,7 that the disciples fully expected a future literal reign of Christ. If it were not going to happen, then what a wonderful opportunity for Christ to straighten them out doctrinally.

Lacy,

Thank you for your participation in this thread. As for Acts 1:6, 7, the disciples, being Jewish, expected a Messiah to liberate them from Roman rule. Jesus made many attempts to straighten them out doctrinally (all of the Kingdom Parables, etc.), but their heart was set on the idea. After Jesus rose from the dead he further taught the disciples, but the Bible is almost totally silent as to what he taught them. One thing that is clear, however, is that a future millennium as taught in Revelation was a radically new doctrine that was very different from what the disciples were looking forward to. Another thing that is very clear is that the millennium of Revelation is not even mentioned by Paul. If he thought that it figured into the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel tradition, he certainly enough would have taught it himself, but he did not. A third thing that is very clear is that the vast majority of Bible scholars, past and present, have said nothing at all about “kingdom exclusion,” and main stream Christian publishers don’t publish writers who teach it (with the exception of Zondervan which has published a book by Zane Hodges, and his theology is quite different from that of Faust et. al., and Zondervan is not owned by Christians).

I am not arguing against the pre-millennial point of view, but only that the millennial kingdom is not at all in view in Matt. 25:30. The punishment taught there is eternal punishment for believers who become apostate. This was the view of the ante-Nicene church at it is very much the majority view today. The ONLY reason for suggesting that it is a punishment regarding the millennium is that eternal punishment of those who at one time were saved is contrary to the OSAS doctrine. And of course the OSAS doctrine was totally unknown to the church for 400 years. Indeed, for 400 years the church vigorously taught conditional security, exclusively!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

Last Friday, I sent long email to J.D. Faust, debate about his book- "The Rod: Will God Spare It?". Yesterday, I received email from Faust.

He speaks of 'outer darkness' of Matt 25:30, that he prove it, that it is temporary, he said,

"Matthew 18 says he shall not come out TILL...But he DOES come out"

He does not say where verse in Matthew chapter 18. So, I read whole Matthew chapter 18 to find it. I believe he quotes verse 30,32,34. Because, verse 30 saying, that a person who behind the debt, cast into prison, till he pay the debt. Verse 32 - Lord saying to servant, 'O thou wicked servant'. I think, he quotes verse 32 refers to Matt. 25:26-30. Also, I think he quotes verse 34 to prove that it is temporary same with Matt 25:30.

Understand, the context of Mathhew 18:21-35 emphasis about FORGIVING, not talk about cast into prison literally, or own the debt - literally.

Notice, Jesus always use parables, illustrations, applications, when He lectured or taught to people and disciples. Many of these are not literal, but use them for spiritual application with purpose.

Notice, Matt. 18:21, Peter asked Christ, how often, should he forgive his brother who sin against him? Till seven times? Then, verse 22- Christ tells him, until seventy times seven.

that is 490 times. Does this take literally exactly how many times to forgive? No. Christ gives us the picture, that we ought to forgive them OFTEN what they sin against us, 'seventy times seven' does not take literally, but it shows us, we ought to forgive them often and often no matter how many times they sin against us. Because Christ commands us, that we ought to love one another, forgive each other.

The context of Matt. 18:21-35 focus on forgiving one another all the times. Matt. 18:21-35 do nothing with Matt. 25:26-30. Both are different apply purposes.

Later tonight, I will reply back to Faust in the email on Matthew chapter 18.

If you don't believe me what Faust saying to me on Matthew 18. Ask brumleyj, He already read email that I sent it forward to him, what Faust said.

No, Matt. 25:30 - outer darkness' is NOT temporary.

No way, that you can prove 'outer darkness' is a temporary place. Accept what Christ says, believe Him. 'Outer darkeness' is very obivously speak of everlasting punishment into the everlasting fire is the lake of fire.

Later tonight, I will continue discuss more about this topic.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Matt. 18:29. "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
30. "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.
31. "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.
32. "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
33. `Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
34. "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35. "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.'' NASB, 1995

If Faust believes that these verses have anything at all to do with the millennium, he is barking up an imaginary tree. Notice that these people were not punished after they died, but in this present life. If Faust believes that these verses have anything to do with Matt. 25:30, he needs to go back to the first grade and learn how to read.

 

[Bartholomew]

Craig,

I was interested in your quotation of Turtullian on the previous page. I have not read any of his books, only quotes, so I do not want to make too rigid a point. But look at part of your quotation:

For although this is not allowed to the sparrows, yet "we are of more value than many sparrows," for the very reason that, when fallen, we rise again. He affirms, lastly, that "the very hairs of our head are all numbered," and ir the affirmation He of course includes the promise of their safety; for if they were to be lost, where would be the use of having taken such a numerical care of them? Surely the only use lies (in this truth): "That of all which the Father hath given to me, I should lose none," not even a hair, as also not an eye nor a tooth.

By these words, Tertullian seems to be clearly talking of the SAVED - those who the Father gave to Jesus; those who he loves; those whose hair will not perish. It is of these (apparantly) SAVED people that Tertullian is arguing will not lose a tooth. And why does he argue that they will not lose a tooth? Because...

And yet whence shall come that "weeping and gnashing of teeth," if not from eyes and teeth? even at that time when the body shall be slain in hell, and thrust out into that outer darkness which shall be the suitable torment of the eyes. He also who shall not be clothed at the marriage feast in the raiment of good works, will have to be " bound hand and foot," as being, of course, raised in his body. So, again, the very reclining at the feast in the kingdom of God, and sitting on Christ's thrones, and standing at last on His right hand and His left, and eating of the tree of life: what are all these but most certain proofs of a bodily appointment and destination?

Like I say, I could be wrong, but the context you gave certianly seems to show that Tertullian is refering to the saved, and how that their destination is based on works.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Matt. 18:29. "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, `Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
30. "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.
31. "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.
32. "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, `You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
33. `Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
34. "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35. "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.'' NASB, 1995

If Faust believes that these verses have anything at all to do with the millennium, he is barking up an imaginary tree. Notice that these people were not punished after they died, but in this present life. If Faust believes that these verses have anything to do with Matt. 25:30, he needs to go back to the first grade and learn how to read.

Craig, I would be very careful of making derogatory statements like that (see Matt 5:22). I assure you that Faust CAN read. I also assure you that your argument is not in the slightest bit sound. The fact that in the parable the man does not die before being punished is irrelevant. Go back to the parable you started this thread with - Matthew 25. Does the unprofitable servant die before his Lord reckons with him? Is he raised from the dead before being cast into outer-darkness? Of course not. Therefore, using your logic, we would have to conclude either:

(a)outer darkness is only a punishment in this life, or

(b)you can't read.

Of course, neither is true, because your method of interpreting the parables is obviously wrong. To see this, go back to the parable of the tares, where Jesus gives the interpretation: the tares do not die in the parable, but Jesus says it is a reference to the judgement. Also compare the Matthew 18 parable to James 2:12-13, and you'll see that the judgement as in Matt 18 will also happen after this life.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
This all seems very clear to me also. There is an excellent article regarding this matter at the following address:

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/faust.htm

Quite frankly, Craig, in this article the writer seems to be one who either just skimmed Faust's book or else ignored most of its arguments altogether. I found the article very misleading and its arguments very weak.</font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely! I found some of the verses quoted quite amusing. For example, they quote Romans 8:1 to teach that a believer can't be condemend. Shame, though, that they didn't quote ALL of the verse!

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Obviously, the implication is that if they DO walk after the flesh, there IS condemnation!

Also, they say quote 1 Cor 11:30-32, and then say:

"The Bible says that we will not be condemned with the world."

Oh no it doesn't. It says we SHOULD not be condemned with the world! There's a big difference between "should" and "will".

"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

Then they quote John 11:25-26 to teach that a believer cannot perish. Shame, though, they seemed to miss the beginning of the verse:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

The fact that he was dead shows that he perished! Far from disproving kingdom exclusion, it seems to affirm it. Indeed, it seems to distinguish two groups:

(a) those who simply "believe" in Jesus, who will live AFTER they were dead (this "living" is apparently the resurrection on the last day - see the previous verse), and
(b)those who both "believe" AND "live" in Jesus (presumably, "living" in Jesus is like "walking in the light", and invlovles keeping his commandments), who will never die. Faust totally agrees that faithful believers will not perish.

The article continues in this manner. The tremendous weakness of its arguments is yet another reason why I think brother Joey is correct.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

you'll see that the judgment as in Matt 18 will also happen AFTER this life

Matthew 18:21-35 speak of our currently living, that we are commanded to forgiving them who sin against us. Matthew 18:21-35 do nothing with the future judgement or comparing to Matt 25:26-30.

On 1 Cor. 11:30-32...

Verse 32 speaks of - we cannot judge the world while we are living, only God is judging the world.

The tremendous weakness of its arguments is yet another reason why I think brother Joey (Faust) is correct

I want to show you another thing in Faust's book, what he says:

"Rebellious Christians (that do not repent in time) WILL BE BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE(typed in capitolized by myself). They will experience a TEMPOARY "second death" at the judgment seat where their souls will be slain. They will ten be banished to the underworld. Nevertheless, they will be restored after the millennium."- pp. 215

His teaching does not make a sense to me. He teaches security salvation, while he is IFB pastor. Nearly every IFB pastors in America, teaching security salvation. BUT... Faust teaches, unfaithful Christians' name will be blotted out of the book of life, cast into outer darkness for a temporary time, then they will be restored after the millennium. That is unbiblical.

If suppose, I agree with premill doctrine, that Revelation 20 tells us, when AFTER the millennium past, people's name is not found written in the book of life then CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE IS THE SECOND DEATH!!! There is no promise for any person shall be release out of the lake of fire, once after person shall be cast into there.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us, ONCE for person to die, then have appointed to face the judgement. There will be NO another chance once AFTER a person dies, person is already appointed to be judged!

1 Cor. 6:2 tells us, it is TIME NOW for us to repent of salvation. OR.... if we do not repent till by the time we died, then there will be NO another chance to repentance.

Bible does not teach us there is purgatory. Bible teaches us, there are only two places where all people will go - everlasting life in New Jerusalem, or everlasting punishment - lake of fire. Simple, no complex.

Matt 25:30 does not promise for unfaithful servant shall be release out of the outer darkness. 'Outer darkness' is obivously speak of everlasting punishment separate from Christ and the kingdom of heaven.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> you'll see that the judgment as in Matt 18 will also happen AFTER this life

Matthew 18:21-35 speak of our currently living, that we are commanded to forgiving them who sin against us. Matthew 18:21-35 do nothing with the future judgement or comparing to Matt 25:26-30.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, why don't you PROVE that Matt 18 has nothing to do with future judgement? Who are the "tormenters"? What does it mean that he will stay there till he pays "all that was due"? Do you think that God punishes Christians in this life in direct proportion to their forgiveness of others? So are all those whose lives are falling appart being punished by God for not forgiving their brthren? Were Job's friends right after all? The logical conclusion of this way of thinking is the prosperity gospel.

Besides, if you'd quoted my entire sentence you'd have seen I said:

Also compare the Matthew 18 parable to James 2:12-13, and you'll see that the judgement as in Matt 18 will also happen after this life.

You see, I was refering to James. Do you think this judgement is also in this life?

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Regarding the Book of Life, I agree that this is the most difficult part of the teaching, and I don't think we've got the truth nailed there. For example, many people argue about WHEN your name gets put into that book. Also, how does your name get blotted out? How's it all work? It's an argument that MANY Christians argue over for different reasons - it's certianly not just difficult for us. And BTW, he doesn't teach conditional salvation - he simply teaches that SOME of the saved can be punished in the millennium, just as you think they can be punished in this life.

Yes, I agree a person is alredy appointed to be judged after death. Joey Faust does not teach there is any other chance after death.

Bible teaches us, there are only two places where all people will go - everlasting life in New Jerusalem, or everlasting punishment - lake of fire. Simple, no complex.

That is true, as far as the last day and eternity is concerned. Joey belives that too. But those are NOT options during the millennial kingdom. No, THERE the options are kingdom or hell.

Matt 25:30 does not promise for unfaithful servant shall be release out of the outer darkness. 'Outer darkness' is obivously speak of everlasting punishment separate from Christ and the kingdom of heaven.

And since the Bible only identifies "hell" as he place people can go who aren't in the kingdom, then yes, "outer darkness" must be "hell". Your problem, though, is Rev 20 says the dead come OUT of hell! Compare scripture with scripture!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Right now, all unbelievers and unfaithful Christians are in the hell. Hell is a temporary place with their 'first death'.

Matt. 25:14-30 is not yet occur right now. Matt. 25:14-30 will be occur follow at Christ's coming for to judge the Christians and the world. Matt. 25:14-30 speaks of judgment seat of Christ/great white throne at Christ's coming. So, outer darkness is speaking of everlasting punishment right AFTER the judgment. There is no promise for unfaithful servant shall be release out of it.

Yes, I know, Joey Faust does teaching uncondional salvation same as what IFB churches teaching. More than 90% of IFB churches teaching that, once, a person's name is not found written in the book of life, CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE- Period, no another chance. Faust teaches unconditional salvation, BUT..... Faust teaches SOME of Christians' name is not found written in the book of life, shall be cats into the outer darkness during millennium period, THEN after that, they shall be release out of it.

But, not what Bible actually teaching.

Rev. 20:14 tells us, WHEN they all face the judgement day, ONCE their name is NOT find written in the book of life, CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE IS SECOND DEATH - EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT!There is NO promise anywhere in the Bible that they shall be release OUT of the "second death" - lake of fire. Faust believes unfaithful Christians shall 'HURT' the second death, cast them into the outer darkness for 1000 years is temporary. But, not what Bible actually teaching. Bible teaches us, once after the judgement, person's name is not find written in the book of life, CAST into the lake of fire IS second death, no one shall escape from the second death. Second death is an everlasting punishment, not temporary!

I agree with James 2:12-13 speak of future judgment to people who do wicked (verse 11), they shall be judged in the judgment day.

Matthew 18:21-35 do not take it literally that Christian shall cast into the literal prison for not pay the debt. The context of Matthew 18:21-35 is not talking about future judgment day, it talking about our currently living, that we commanded to forgive one each other who sin againsy us - often and often.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi, I think our problem is our disagreement in the timimg. Myself, Joey Faust and Lacy Evans all believe the Judgment Seat (JS) and Great White Throne (GWT) are different, occuring 1000 years apart. We agree with you that at the GWT nobody cast into the Lake of Fire will come out. We also agree that Hell is temporary and that all those in there will come out before the GWT. However, we think that 1000 years before that some Christians be HURT of the second death, and cast into hell. Without this distinction of the 1000 years inbetween the two judgements I don't think we can ever resolve this. To be honest, I'm more interested in discussing the history of the doctrine (like the original post mentioned) than arguing.

Your brother in Christ,

Bartholomew

 

[brumleyj]

deafposttrib told me that you dont believe what he is saying in email to DR Faust on salvation doctrine. he did showed me some of his email debate with Dr faust about his error interpertation on salvation doctrine. also deafposttrib show me dr faust book while we are spent together out time during deaf christian baksetball tourment in march. i telling you that i toally disagree with Dr fauset's interpation of scriputres. dr fauses teaching is toally unbibical and very strange. i did not highly recommned that book to baby christian or blacksidden chrsitan read that book . there is no security salvation has found in any scriptures i can see clearly of condtional salvation has found in any scriptures.

you believe judgment seat and great white throne are diffrent please come on. bible is not saying there are two judgment. judgment seat and great white throne are same meaning. no sperate. you believe hell is tempoary place please come on. bible is not saying hell is tempoary place. i believe hell is everlasting that mean forever and forver never ending.

you dont argee with deafpostrib is saying this post? dont argue or wrestle aganist God's word.

brumleyj
ps27:1
amem

 

[Craigbythesea]

Bartholomew wrote,

Like I say, I could be wrong, but the context you gave certianly seems to show that Tertullian is refering to the saved, and how that their destination is based on works.

ALL of the church fathers for the first 400 years after Christ believed in conditional security. Except for Augustine, who wavered on the issue, and a few unknowns, the entire church continued to believe in conditional security until John Calvin (1509-1564) got confused about the sovereignty of God and the implications involved.

There are today a multitude of different OSAS doctrines that refute each other. Most Christian denominations, churches, and Christian lay people and scholars believe in conditional (as opposed to eternal) salvation. The only major exceptions are most Presbyterian and Reformed churches, most (but certainly not all) Baptist churches, and most churches in the Calvary Chapel movement. And apart from the United States and Canada, the doctrine of eternal security is a very unpopular doctrine.


Is the Bible so extremely difficult to understand that no one, no one at all, was able to understand the message of salvation in the Bible for 400 years, and then only a very small handful of people for another 1100 years? No, it is not!