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Michael being Jesus

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HisWitness

New Member
I have read much that Spurgeon wrote and preached, and have yet to read anything of such you claim.


I will restate: No where do I find that Spurgeon EVER said that Michael was Jesus.


Unless you can post the exact document and cite the source, the support you desire from Spurgeon for your argument is not credible.

Spurgeon's comments directly from his sermons.............



“By faith we rise into the conquering place this day. In the heavenlies we triumph, as also in every place. We rejoice in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Michael of the angels, the Redeemer of men. For by Him we see Satan cast out and all the powers of evil hurled from their places of power and eminence.”

From “Our Lord’s Transcendent Greatness” (Dec. 2, 1866):


You remember how our Lord, who is the true Michael, the only great Archangel, said at the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel, “I beheld Satan as lightning falling from Heaven.”

From “The Angelic Life” (Nov. 22, 1868):


“We read that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon was cast down. The fight is going on every day. Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel.”
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have read much that Spurgeon wrote and preached, and have yet to read anything of such you claim.


I will restate: No where do I find that Spurgeon EVER said that Michael was Jesus.


Unless you can post the exact document and cite the source, the support you desire from Spurgeon for your argument is not credible.

For some context you could look here

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/spurgeon/sermons34.xli.html
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Having eyes to see ye see not. And ears to hear, ye hear not..

My position does not take Christ's authority away.

Christ sits on His throne in heaven ruling over all. He commands Michael, who commands the angels. If you understood rank and file, you would understand that the commander in chief orders the leaders in the department of defense, who command those under them, who command those under them, etc. etc.

Just because Michael commands the angels doesn't mean Christ is not in ultimate control.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter


Stating that "Jesus is THE Michael of the angels" is a far cry from Jesus is Michael.

My soul, (as Fanny Crosby would say) to make such a claim when in contrast it is so very obvious Spurgeon was exalting the authority and blood of Christ, is absolutely astounding!!!!

Spurgeon no more believed that Michael was Jesus or Jesus was Michael than I do.

I am reminded of the man who dropped his keys late one night on the way to his car. He spent a great deal of time looking when a friend passed by and started helping.

After much time, the friend asked, where did you drop them. The man pointed quite a way off in the dark where they were not searching.

The friend asked, "Why are you looking here when your keys are obviously over there?"

"Because this is where the street light is and I can see over here."

Claiming that Jesus is Michael makes about as much sense as the man who lost the keys!
 

HisWitness

New Member
Stating that "Jesus is THE Michael of the angels" is a far cry from Jesus is Michael.

My soul, (as Fanny Crosby would say) to make such a claim when in contrast it is so very obvious Spurgeon was exalting the authority and blood of Christ, is absolutely astounding!!!!

Spurgeon no more believed that Michael was Jesus or Jesus was Michael than I do.

I am reminded of the man who dropped his keys late one night on the way to his car. He spent a great deal of time looking when a friend passed by and started helping.

After much time, the friend asked, where did you drop them. The man pointed quite a way off in the dark where they were not searching.

The friend asked, "Why are you looking here when your keys are obviously over there?"

"Because this is where the street light is and I can see over here."

Claiming that Jesus is Michael makes about as much sense as the man who lost the keys!

maybe you didn't read all of it the ONLY Great Archangel is there also---and this was spoken of Jesus

He related jesus plainly as the ONLY great archangel ???.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Archangels are nothing more than chief angels. Angels in charge over all other angels.

All angels (archangels included) are created beings. Jesus was not, and is not, a created being. He has always existed. He is eternal.

That said, Jesus cannot be the created archangel Michael.

You can claim He is all you want, but when you do you take away His deity. You take away His ability to save mankind through His death, burial and resurrection. The created being, Michael, could not die for mankind.
 

HisWitness

New Member
Archangels are nothing more than chief angels. Angels in charge over all other angels.

All angels (archangels included) are created beings. Jesus was not, and is not, a created being. He has always existed. He is eternal.

That said, Jesus cannot be the created archangel Michael.

You can claim He is all you want, but when you do you take away His deity. You take away His ability to save mankind through His death, burial and resurrection. The created being, Michael, could not die for mankind.

I am speaking of Spurgeon saying he was friend
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
You misread Spurgeon.

Further, you misread me. Nowhere have I befriended you. Rather, I have rebuked you and attempted to correct you.

But, being stiff-necked, you refuse to accept what is clearly written in the Word of God.
 

HisWitness

New Member
You misread Spurgeon.

Further, you misread me. Nowhere have I befriended you. Rather, I have rebuked you and attempted to correct you.

But, being stiff-necked, you refuse to accept what is clearly written in the Word of God.

your the one who misread Spurgeon with your plain denial of what he said in that post--remain in your denial if you please ---it is your right to do so friend :love2::love2::love2:
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Spurgeon's comments directly from his sermons.............



“By faith we rise into the conquering place this day. In the heavenlies we triumph, as also in every place. We rejoice in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Michael of the angels, the Redeemer of men. For by Him we see Satan cast out and all the powers of evil hurled from their places of power and eminence.”

From “Our Lord’s Transcendent Greatness” (Dec. 2, 1866):

In context from "The Blood of the Lamb, the Conquering Weapon"
Delivered on the Lord's Day Morning, September 9, 1888. Click on the title for a full PDF version of the sermon


"Come, my Soul, you have conquered Satan by your Lord’s victory. Will you not be brave enough to fight a vanquished foe and trample down the enemy whom your Lord has already thrust down? You need not be afraid, but say, “Thanks be to God which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” We have overcome sin, death and Hell in the Person and work of our great Lord. And we should be greatly encouraged by that which has been already worked in our name. Already we are more than conquerors through Him that has loved us. If Jesus had not overcome the enemy, certainly we never should have done so. But His personal triumph has secured ours.
By faith we rise into the conquering place this day. In the heavenlies we triumph, as also in every place. We rejoice in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Michael of the angels, the Redeemer of men. For by Him we see Satan cast out and all the powers of evil hurled from their places of power and eminence.
This day I would have you overcome Satan in the heavenlies in another sense—you must overcome him as the Accuser. At times you hear in your heart a voice arousing memory and startling conscience. A voice which seems in Heaven to be a remembrance of your guilt. Hark to that deep, croaking voice, boding evil! Satan is urging before the Throne of Justice all your former sins. Can you hear him? He begins with your childish faults and your youthful follies. Truly a black memory. He does not let one of your wickednesses drop out. Things which you had forgotten he cunningly revives. He knows your secret sins, for he had a hand in most of them...."

See, the reference is NOT proclaiming title but status. To state that in some way Spurgeon is proclaiming a title of archangel to Jesus is to misread what he states.



BTW, you cannot hold to no Satan and use Spurgeon as proof of your Michael/Jesus thinking - for HERE Spurgeon clearly states not support for such a view as you have posted.


You remember how our Lord, who is the true Michael, the only great Archangel, said at the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel, “I beheld Satan as lightning falling from Heaven.”

From “The Angelic Life” (Nov. 22, 1868):

Actually this is taken from "Spurgeon Verse Expositions - Revelation 12:1 - 12:17" click on the title for the link.

Again the whole is,
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven.

You remember how our Lord, who is the true Michael, the only great archangel, said at the beginning of the preaching of the gospel, “I beheld Satan as lightning falling from heaven.” His power among the heavenlies is gone; he was cast out of the place called heaven; so is he now, by the preaching of the gospel, and by the death of Christ, cast down from among the heavenly influences."

Again, it is a statement of status, not title. Spurgeon is showing the consistency of the Scriptures, comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Again, BTW, if you are to use Spurgeon as a credit to your view, then you will have to use Spurgeon as a discredit to your view of Satan being a myth or some humankind invention.

You can't have it both ways. Either he supports you, or doesn't - He doesn't.



“We read that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, and the dragon was cast down. The fight is going on every day. Michael is the Lord Jesus, the only Archangel.”


This is taken from a sermon in which Spurgeon uses a reference to Jude.


Sermon: "The Resurrection of the Dead" Delivered on Sabbath morning, February 17, 1856 Click on the title for a full PDF version of the sermon.
"There is a remarkable passage in Jude, where it speaks of Michael the Archangel contending with the devil about the body of Moses and using no “railing accusation.” Now, this refers to the great Doctrine of angels watching over the bones of the saints. Certainly it tells us that the body of Moses was watched over by a great archangel. The devil thought to disturb that body but Michael contended with him about it. Now would there be a contention about that body if it had been of no value? Would Michael contend for that which was only to be the food of worms? Would he wrestle with the enemy for that which was to be scattered to the four winds of Heaven, never to be united again into a new and goodlier fabric? No. Assuredly not! From this we learn that an angel watches over every tomb. It is no fiction, when on the marble we carve the cherubs with their wings. There are cherubs with outstretched wings over the head of the gravestones of all the righteous. Yes, and where “the rude forefathers of the hamlet sleep,” in some nook overgrown by nettles, there an angel stands night and day to watch each bone and guard each atom, that at the resurrection, those bodies, with more glory than they had on earth, may start up to dwell forever with the Lord! The guardianship of the bodies of the saints by angels proves that they shall rise again from the dead!"


Just the fact that Spurgeon is quoting from Jude which clearly states that Michael and the Lord are not the same, See quote from Jude 9.
9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
So is Michael speaking to himself in a blasphemous way? Or is he Michael the archangel appealing to Christ (the Lord)?

Seems to me your view is faulty and is not even supported by those whom you would gather as proof.

For not only do they deny you the proof you desire, but they actually teach what you deny is the truth.

You can't have it both ways.


 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Benito Juarez was said to be "the Abraham Lincoln of Mexico." Using your logic, Benito surely must be Abraham Lincoln.

The POTUS is said to be "the James Buchanan of today." Using your logic, Obama is without a doubt James Buchanan.

Learn to read poetic writing, then you may be able to comprehend what Spurgeon meant.

If you think Spurgeon believed Jesus to be Michael the archangel, you are mistaken. The Bible is clear... None of the angels were given the authority Jesus has. All angels worship him.

Michael is an angel. He worships Jesus.
 
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HisWitness

New Member
Some more scriptures for some to deal with concerning this topic....

Gen.31:11-13

11-And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream,saying Jacob:And I said'Here am I.
12-And he said,Lift up now thine eyes'and see,all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked,speckled,and grisled:for Ihave seen all that Leban doeth unto thee.
13-I am the GOD of Beth-el,where thou anointedst the pillar,and where thou vowedst a vow unto ME:now arise,get thee out from this land,and return unto the land of thy kindred.

Lot on interesting things in these verses if you will look into them---------

1-verse 1 states Angel of God
2-the Angel stated that he was THE GOD of BETH-EL
_________________________________________________________________

Gen.48:15-16

15-And he blessed Joseph,and said,GOD,before whom my fathers Abraham and Issac did walk,the GOD which fed me all my life long unto this day.
16-The ANGEL which redeemed me from ALL evil,bless the lads;and let my name be named on them,and the name of my fathers Abraham and Issac;and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Again GOD is mentioned to start with in these verses and then Israel in verse 16 says the ANGEL referring to GOD whom he was speaking about in the verses-------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________________

Exodus 3:2,4,6

2-And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:and he looked,and,behold the bush burned with fire,and the bush was not consumed.
4-And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see,GOD called unto him out of the midst of the bush,and said,Moses,Moses.And he said,Here am I
6-Moreover he said,I am the GOD of thy father,the GOD of Abraham,the GOD of Issac,and the GOD of Jacob,and Moses hid his face;for he was afraid to look upon GOD.

Again look at these verses with the same examples -----------------
verse 2 says Angel of the Lord was in the midst of the bush
verse 4-GOD called Moses out of the midst of the bush
verse 6-the same one in the midst of the bush from verse 1 says I AM GOD
_________________________________________________________________

Angel can be used when speaking about God---so what ye say to this????
Angel means messenger

Archangel--arch=Chief angel=messenger
Archangel means Chief of the angels or Chief of the messengers

angel can be used when speaking about God in a verse God is a messenger also---he brings his message to men--even in the flesh(Jesus)

So I ask could not Michael(Chief of the angels(Messengers) also be Christ ?
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Some more scriptures for some to deal with concerning this topic....

Gen.31:11-13

11-And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream,saying Jacob:And I said'Here am I.
12-And he said,Lift up now thine eyes'and see,all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked,speckled,and grisled:for Ihave seen all that Leban doeth unto thee.
13-I am the GOD of Beth-el,where thou anointedst the pillar,and where thou vowedst a vow unto ME:now arise,get thee out from this land,and return unto the land of thy kindred.

Lot on interesting things in these verses if you will look into them---------

1-verse 1 states Angel of God
2-the Angel stated that he was THE GOD of BETH-EL
_________________________________________________________________

Gen.48:15-16

15-And he blessed Joseph,and said,GOD,before whom my fathers Abraham and Issac did walk,the GOD which fed me all my life long unto this day.
16-The ANGEL which redeemed me from ALL evil,bless the lads;and let my name be named on them,and the name of my fathers Abraham and Issac;and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Again GOD is mentioned to start with in these verses and then Israel in verse 16 says the ANGEL referring to GOD whom he was speaking about in the verses-------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________________

Exodus 3:2,4,6

2-And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:and he looked,and,behold the bush burned with fire,and the bush was not consumed.
4-And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see,GOD called unto him out of the midst of the bush,and said,Moses,Moses.And he said,Here am I
6-Moreover he said,I am the GOD of thy father,the GOD of Abraham,the GOD of Issac,and the GOD of Jacob,and Moses hid his face;for he was afraid to look upon GOD.

Again look at these verses with the same examples -----------------
verse 2 says Angel of the Lord was in the midst of the bush
verse 4-GOD called Moses out of the midst of the bush
verse 6-the same one in the midst of the bush from verse 1 says I AM GOD
_________________________________________________________________

Angel can be used when speaking about God---so what ye say to this????
Angel means messenger

Archangel--arch=Chief angel=messenger
Archangel means Chief of the angels or Chief of the messengers

angel can be used when speaking about God in a verse God is a messenger also---he brings his message to men--even in the flesh(Jesus)

So I ask could not Michael(Chief of the angels(Messengers) also be Christ ?
No, he could not be. Hebrews 1 makes that clear.
 

HisWitness

New Member


In context from "The Blood of the Lamb, the Conquering Weapon"
Delivered on the Lord's Day Morning, September 9, 1888. Click on the title for a full PDF version of the sermon


"Come, my Soul, you have conquered Satan by your Lord’s victory. Will you not be brave enough to fight a vanquished foe and trample down the enemy whom your Lord has already thrust down? You need not be afraid, but say, “Thanks be to God which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” We have overcome sin, death and Hell in the Person and work of our great Lord. And we should be greatly encouraged by that which has been already worked in our name. Already we are more than conquerors through Him that has loved us. If Jesus had not overcome the enemy, certainly we never should have done so. But His personal triumph has secured ours.
By faith we rise into the conquering place this day. In the heavenlies we triumph, as also in every place. We rejoice in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Michael of the angels, the Redeemer of men. For by Him we see Satan cast out and all the powers of evil hurled from their places of power and eminence.
This day I would have you overcome Satan in the heavenlies in another sense—you must overcome him as the Accuser. At times you hear in your heart a voice arousing memory and startling conscience. A voice which seems in Heaven to be a remembrance of your guilt. Hark to that deep, croaking voice, boding evil! Satan is urging before the Throne of Justice all your former sins. Can you hear him? He begins with your childish faults and your youthful follies. Truly a black memory. He does not let one of your wickednesses drop out. Things which you had forgotten he cunningly revives. He knows your secret sins, for he had a hand in most of them...."

See, the reference is NOT proclaiming title but status. To state that in some way Spurgeon is proclaiming a title of archangel to Jesus is to misread what he states.



BTW, you cannot hold to no Satan and use Spurgeon as proof of your Michael/Jesus thinking - for HERE Spurgeon clearly states not support for such a view as you have posted.




Actually this is taken from "Spurgeon Verse Expositions - Revelation 12:1 - 12:17" click on the title for the link.

Again the whole is,
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not: neither was their place found any more in heaven.

You remember how our Lord, who is the true Michael, the only great archangel, said at the beginning of the preaching of the gospel, “I beheld Satan as lightning falling from heaven.” His power among the heavenlies is gone; he was cast out of the place called heaven; so is he now, by the preaching of the gospel, and by the death of Christ, cast down from among the heavenly influences."

Again, it is a statement of status, not title. Spurgeon is showing the consistency of the Scriptures, comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Again, BTW, if you are to use Spurgeon as a credit to your view, then you will have to use Spurgeon as a discredit to your view of Satan being a myth or some humankind invention.

You can't have it both ways. Either he supports you, or doesn't - He doesn't.






This is taken from a sermon in which Spurgeon uses a reference to Jude.


Sermon: "The Resurrection of the Dead" Delivered on Sabbath morning, February 17, 1856 Click on the title for a full PDF version of the sermon.
"There is a remarkable passage in Jude, where it speaks of Michael the Archangel contending with the devil about the body of Moses and using no “railing accusation.” Now, this refers to the great Doctrine of angels watching over the bones of the saints. Certainly it tells us that the body of Moses was watched over by a great archangel. The devil thought to disturb that body but Michael contended with him about it. Now would there be a contention about that body if it had been of no value? Would Michael contend for that which was only to be the food of worms? Would he wrestle with the enemy for that which was to be scattered to the four winds of Heaven, never to be united again into a new and goodlier fabric? No. Assuredly not! From this we learn that an angel watches over every tomb. It is no fiction, when on the marble we carve the cherubs with their wings. There are cherubs with outstretched wings over the head of the gravestones of all the righteous. Yes, and where “the rude forefathers of the hamlet sleep,” in some nook overgrown by nettles, there an angel stands night and day to watch each bone and guard each atom, that at the resurrection, those bodies, with more glory than they had on earth, may start up to dwell forever with the Lord! The guardianship of the bodies of the saints by angels proves that they shall rise again from the dead!"


Just the fact that Spurgeon is quoting from Jude which clearly states that Michael and the Lord are not the same, See quote from Jude 9.
9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
So is Michael speaking to himself in a blasphemous way? Or is he Michael the archangel appealing to Christ (the Lord)?

Seems to me your view is faulty and is not even supported by those whom you would gather as proof.

For not only do they deny you the proof you desire, but they actually teach what you deny is the truth.

You can't have it both ways.



I didn't say I agreed with every thing Spurgeon said---but he clearly said Jesus was Michael and Jesus was the ONLY great Archangel
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Nothing too hard to understand. The angel was speaking the words that God told him to speak.

The same can be said of Moses, when God told him on more than one occasion,

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.

Do you also believe Moses to be God? After all, he told the Israelites, "I am the LORD your God."
 
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HisWitness

New Member
Nothing too hard to understand. The angel was speaking the words that God told him to speak.

The same can be said of Moses, when God told him on more than one occasion,

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.

yea true--but God told a man to say these things and when Moses spoke he said that the Lord God said--they knew Moses wasn't God neither a Man was God--your reasoning doesn't fit the scriptures I gave you

In none of those scriptures did God say to an angel this is what you tell him or them NO

you read where the Angel of the Lord said I AM GOD---same as when the verse said The LORD said unto my LORD---

I understand your denial--but its evident in those scriptures the Angel was indeed GOD himself--plainly states it--there is no God telling an gel what to say there at all---the Angel said I AM GOD---
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
yea true--but God told a man to say these things and when Moses spoke he said that the Lord God said--they knew Moses wasn't God neither a Man was God--your reasoning doesn't fit the scriptures I gave you

In none of those scriptures did God say to an angel this is what you tell him or them NO

you read where the Angel of the Lord said I AM GOD---same as when the verse said The LORD said unto my LORD---

I understand your denial--but its evident in those scriptures the Angel was indeed GOD himself--plainly states it--there is no God telling an gel what to say there at all---the Angel said I AM GOD---
you accuse me of reading into scripture what isn't there? Hypocrite! You do the very thing you accuse me of.
 
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