millinial questions

[Brother Bob]

Here is the Great Tribulattion Period:

Rev 14:9-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the third Angel followed them, saying with a lowd voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receiue his marke in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, which is powred out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:

Sorry, sure sounds to me like thinks are getting worse

This is the Tribulations and the days were shortened for the elect's sake.


Matt 24:
14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19: And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is His promise of the end and beginning of His wrath.

Hbr 12:26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven


Rev 6:12¶And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?




1. The days of the Tribulations were shortened for the elect's sake.

2. There will be no shortening of the days of His wrath, there will be total destruction of the devil, his angels, those who work abomination, those who make a lie, and whosoever's name is found NOT written in the Lamb's book of life.

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Brother Bob: // ... John the Baptist plainly says the church will flee from the wrath of God//

Tis not very plain. John the Baptist spake to non-church members. If John the Baptist said 'the church will flee from the wrath of God', then which 'church' was he speaking of?

Post 221: //So, there are two earthquakes in the wrath of God, what does that prove???//

Chapter 6 earthquake is at the start of the Tribulation Period (70th Week of Daniel), Chapter 16 earthquake is near the end of the Tribualtion Period.

What I said proves that the Tribulation Period is the Wrath of God.
One of the best passages about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture2 (resurrection1 followed directly by a rapture1) is 1 Thessalonians 4:13 to 1 Thessalonians 5:11.

Both 1 Thessalonians 4:18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:11 tell us we are to encourage one another with these words. Sorry but "Jesus came back already and didn't take you with Him" is not encouraging. Sorry but "when hell comes to earth you have to suffer through it" is not encouraging. I find this encouraging: "Jesus is going to come and get His own BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD". 'Hope' trumps 'doubt'. Jesus saves! Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

//How could a resurrection 2 BE a resurrection 1 ????//

I never said that, so don't need to show it to you.

Here is what I said:

resurrection1 is when Jesus restores a dead saint
rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period

rapture1 follows resurrection1:

1Th 4:16-18 (KJV1611 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descend from heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp [Latin: rapture] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.

resurrection1 = the dead in Christ rise
rapture1 = we (in Christ) who are alive and remain rise

This happens twice at each end of the Day of Christ:

1. rapture2 event is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period. The rapture2 happens at the beginning of the Day of Christ

resurrection2 event is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period happens at the end of the Day of Christ

Day of Christ = God's Judgement on mankind called the Tribulation Period Judgement.

 

[Brother Bob]

//How could a resurrection 2 BE a
resurrection 1 ????//

Post #204 Ed Edwards:
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

I never said that, so don't need to show it to you.

Here is what I said:

resurrection1 is when Jesus restores a dead saint
rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body



rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

How could rapture 2 be a resurrection 1 and a rapture 1

resurrection2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection 1 followed by a rapture 1
rapture1 follows resurrection1:

Sorry Ed, but seems you did use a Equivocation!


1Th 4:16-18 (KJV1611 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descend from heauen with a shout, with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpe of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught vp [Latin: rapture] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.

resurrection1 = the dead in Christ rise
rapture1 = we (in Christ) who are alive and remain rise

what is difference between a rapture and a resurrection??

This happens twice at each end of the Day of Christ:

1. rapture2 event is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period. The rapture2 happens at the beginning of the Day of Christ

a rapture 1 (which is a resurrection), you don't find rapture in the scripture, unless you go latin.

resurrection2 event is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period happens at the end of the Day of Christ

You can not have a resurrection 2 and then have a rapture (resurrection) 1

Day of Christ = God's Judgement on mankind called the Tribulation Period Judgement.

Chapter 6 earthquake is at the start of the Tribulation Period (70th Week of Daniel), Chapter 16 earthquake is near the end of the Tribualtion Period.

Again, Jesus said the days of tribulation shall be shortened for elect's sake. That is scripture, don't you agree those days were shortened??

Wrath shall not be shortened for anyone!!!

BBob,

 

[EdSutton]

I disagree, The only resurrection before the Trib is when Jesus arose and the saints arose with him. The rapture is after the, trib of which no flesh would be saved except for the elect's sake.

I think you confuse the Trib with the Wrath and John the Baptist plainly says the church will flee from the wrath of God.

This is the Trib, which the church will suffer:

Matt:
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38: For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39: And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40: Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41: Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43: But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



Luke:
20: And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21: Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22: For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23: But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26: Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28: And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This is the wrath of God:

Rev: 6
11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This is where the church will be:

Rev: 7

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This is what will begin to happen to those left behind:

Rev 8:



1: And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2: And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4: And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5: And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6: And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13: And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev 9:

Rev 10:

Rev 11:

Rev 16: Is speaking of the same time period 8, 9, 10, 11

Rev continues to tell of things that happen during the wrath of God, it also tells of things that happened in the past and how Heaven will be.

The saved will be in the Tribulations but will not be in the wrath of God which is to come, after the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Mat 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

BBob,

John the Baptist never said one word about "the church" - fleeing, or otherwise, for He never uses the term, nor did he even know about such thing as any 'church'.

Incidentally, if there is/was only the resurrection of the saints "before the Trib" and that was the one when the saints were resurrected with Jesus, up until now, how is it that a yet "future resurrection" is called the first resurrection?

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

John the Baptist never said one word about "the church" - fleeing, or otherwise, for He never uses the term, nor did he even know about such thing as any 'church'.

Incidentally, if there is/was only the resurrection of the saints "before the Trib" and that was the one when the saints were resurrected with Jesus, up until now, how is it that a yet "future resurrection" is called the first resurrection?

Ed

I used the description of resurrection 1, put forth by Ed Edwards and went and posted scripture that explains it exactly as he put it, and showed it has already taken place.

It was explained that resurrection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body.

Scripture tells us this has already taken place, but you among others just gloss over it as if it never happened.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now this is a fulfillment of what was said to be resurrection 1.

What do you call it.

There was a church even in the OT.

Act 12:1¶Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth [his] hands to vex certain of the church.

Act 7:38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Act 7:39To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


Rev 20:6Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Where does it say, the first resurrection is in the future?? It speaks of a resurrection in the future but that is of the just and the unjust.

First resurrection says, lived and reigned (past tense).

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection (Christ)!!

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

I used the description of resurrection 1, put forth by Ed Edwards and went and posted scripture that explains it exactly as he put it, and showed it has already taken place.

It was explained that resurrection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body.

Scripture tells us this has already taken place, but you among others just gloss over it as if it never happened.

I agreed, this Bible example is ONE EXAMPLE of what I'm calling a 'resurrection1'. Here is an example of several resurrection1s which I wrote first in the early 1990s:
-------------------------------------------------

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/​

Five Resurrections:
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

407 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
I define this as Rapture2 = the pre-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1.
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 31 Mar 2008;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
I define this as Resurrection2 = the post-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

---------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Where does it say, the first resurrection is in the future??//

Nowhere in scriptures does it say " the first resurrection is in the future". One problem is that the Scripture is eternal. So someday the 'first resurrection will be in the past. So people have to figure that out for themselves.

To the 20 Million Christian Martyrs of the 20th Century (1901-2000) and to the other 12 Million Christian Martyrs of the First Century (0001-0100) through the 19th Century (1801-1900): Thank you for your testimony unto death for our Lord & Savior: Messiah Jesus. I will see you soon, for I would like to thank you personally.

Where does it say, "the first resurrection done already happened"??

 

[skypair]

BBob, Ed,

Respectfully, guys, this is a thread on "MILLENNIAL questions." I would like to focus on the issue that we are NOT living in the MK as BBob says. Confessing that, perhaps the rest of his eschatology will come into line with scripture. So...

...these passages, BBob. They describe various aspects of the MK. They do NOT apertain now (not that I know of anyway). Would you please take the time to show me their application or else quit referring to this era as the MK?

Here are the Bible references to the Millennial Kingdom (See if you can fit them into your eschatology; they fit in mine.): Psa 2:6-8; 98:4-9; Isa 2:2-4, 9:6-7;11:9-16; 25:8; 29:18-19; 30:23-26, 35:5-10; 40:4-5, 10-11; 42:16; 45:6; 49:10-11; 55:13; 60:1, 3, 11, 19-20, 25; Jer 23:5-6; Ezek 34:23-24; Dan 2:44; 7:13-14; Joel 3:18; Amos 9:11, 13; Micah 4:1-6; Hab 2:14; Zeph 3:9, 15, 17; Zech 6:12-13; 8:3-5; 14:8-9;16, 20; Mt 19:28; 25:31; Luke 1:31-33; 22:30; Acts 2:30; Rom 8:21; 1Cor 15:24-28; Phil 2:10-11; 2Tim 2:12; Heb 1:8; Rev 3:21; 5:13, 11:15, 19:15:16; 20:4. BTW -- NONE of them sound like today.

Are you truly willing to "blow these passages" off so that you can go on preaching untruth?

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

...


To the 20 Million Christian Martyrs of the 20th Century (1901-2000) and to the other 12 Million Christian Martyrs of the First Century (0001-0100) through the 19th Century (1801-1900): Thank you for your testimony unto death for our Lord & Savior: Messiah Jesus. I will see you soon, for I would like to thank you personally.
...

Will there be Christian Martyrs in the Millennial Messanic Kingdom? In the Millennial Messanic Kingdom, when the Lamb & Lion lie down together -- will there be 20 Million Christian Martyrs in one of those years?

Rom 8:24 (KJV1611 Edition):
For wee are saued by hope: but hope that is seene, is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

I hope for a Millennial Messanic Kingdom where righetousness reigns along with the Messiah -- I do not hope for a Millennial Messanic Kingdom where in communists (or anybody else) kills 30,000,000 of those who belong to Jesus who are the ones following Jesus. But that is exacly what has happened in this world in which we live, much of it IN MY LIFETIME. Hello! this isn't history - this is NEWS. WE are NOT now in the Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

 

[EdSutton]

Scripture tells us this has already taken place, but you among others just gloss over it as if it never happened.

Hey! Nice ad hominem!

Of course, there is that little, insignificant matter that your crack is entirely inaccurate.

First, I did not address the verses below, in the thread, so why is it that you accuse me, here, of 'glossing over' it, or anything else, for that matter.
Second, as always, I make no attempt speak for any other, as to what "they" may or may not either say or do, or have done in the past. FTR, I have addressed these verses, in the past, if I recall correctly, without searching for any 6-10 hours.

52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matt. 27:52-53 - NKJV)

Some of these (OT) saints were raised, at this time [but not all, as there was a 'resurrection' prophesied that is still yet future. (Dan. 12:1-3)]. As there is no mention, anywhere, of them being around after the Lord ascended into heaven after the forty days, these were undoubtedly taken up with Jesus at His ascension, and were/are those who constituted the "wave-sheaf" 'offering' brought before the Father, by the Son, the Great High Priest. (Ex. 29:24; Lev. 23:10-12; I Cor. 15:23; Heb. 4:14; 9:11). David was one of those who was not raised, at this time. (Acts. 2:29,34; 13:34) And the language of Job suggests that neither was Job to be raised then, but later. (Job. 19:25; cp. Job 14:14; Rom. 8:23)

Now this is a fulfillment of what was said to be resurrection 1.

What do you call it.

See what I just wrote, above.

There was a church even in the OT.

Act 12:1¶Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth [his] hands to vex certain of the church.

Act 7:38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Act 7:39To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

I disagree, not with the Scripture, here, but your interpretation of it.
First, Acts 12:1 has no bearing on any possible "church" in the OT (nor about what 'John, the Baptist' spoke, for that was the original statement on which I commented), so the verse is irrelevant, in the context of the question.
Second, I am using, as always, "church" to specifically speak of those believers, in the church, both local ,and general, that was future, when Jesus first mentioned a church, which he called "my church" - HIS "ekklEsia" (or 'ecclesia', as one may prefer in transliteration of the Greek word) - or (called-out) assembly, and which is described as being "his body", composed of both "Jews and Gentiles". The Greek word "ecclesia" rendered here as "church" in the KJV, does not refer to this, in its context, and nowhere but here, and in to my knowledge, is "ecclesia" even specifically associated with "Israel", in any manner whatsoever, let alone in the matter of believers. Unlike the NT "church", the Body of Christ, which is composed, in her entirety of believers, Israel was not even close in this aspect. Nor did national 'Israel', even "redeemed Israel", possess other characteristics associated with "the church", such as having the Holy Spirit indwell individuals; the baptism of the Holy Spirit, church ordinances, etc. Every one of the redeemed, from Abel forward, until the time of the church, were just as saved and secure as you or I, and that by faith in God, apart from works, based on the then yet future blood offering of the Son, but none were a part of Christ's 'spiritual' body. I have often said that the 'meanest', 'merest, youngest and/or poorest Christian of today, has far more than Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Elijah, or any other OT believer could have even possibly envisioned.

There was none greater 'born' of woman than John the Baptist. I got more!

Enoch and Noah "walked with God"! I got 'em beat "by a mile"!

Job looked and waited for a resurrection. He's still a-waitin'; I done got mine! It's 'aorist' tense! Done happened! Like Paul, when he wrote about it, I just ain't got around to physically experiencing it yet. (Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 3:1)

David and Solomon "built the House of God". Not even close.

David - the man after God's own heart. What a wannabe'! God, the Holy Spirit, personally lives in yours and mine!

I don't for one second think I'm as faithful as these saints generally were, by any stretch of imagination, so I'm not trying to brag, here, in any way. Every one that is a believer, is in the same crowd as I am, in this.

OK, so I got sidetracked, for a minute. Back to the "church". If we consider "the assembly (ekklEsia) in the wilderness" [and I believe this is most accurately rendered as 'assembly', as in the NIV, AMP, NLT, NAB, YLT, DARBY, GWT, WEB, and TNIV, among others - even Tyndale, a century before the KJV, rendered this as 'congregation', a way that is, IMO, while less acceptable than 'assembly', is still far better than "church". The ASV, NASB, ESV, HCSB, and WEY, among others, follow Tyndale, here.] The 1917 Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) has this to say, about "church" in the notes, and generally sums up (far better than I) what I've tried to get across, here.

[1] church
Israel in the land is never called a church. In the wilderness Israel was a true church (G. ecclesia = called-out assembly), but in striking contrast with the N.T. ecclesia
See Scofield Note: "Mt 16:18".

Likewise, if one is to 'count' this "ekklEsia" of Israel, as being the same as that of the NT 'church', then one would be obligated to 'count' the mob 'assembly' found in Acts 19:21-41, as well as the 'lawful' one the clerk spoke of in contrast, in Acts. 19:39 as a "church" as well. Same word, "ekklEsia", all churches? I don't think so.

Rev 20:6Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Where does it say, the first resurrection is in the future??

Right here, in Rev. 20. This whole passage is future as it follows the return of the Lord in Chapter 19, and is a continuation of the progression John records that starts many chapters earlier, and continues, without interruption on through the end of the book. The connective words and phrases of "Then", "Now", "and", and "After these things" show this clearly. One has to attempt to "read theology" into the book, to arbitrarily pick and choose when this is a progression, and when something "jumps out of time", so to speak, to 'stand alone', and then with no warning, jusp back into a chronology, when the language and progression doesn't change.

BTW, I'll also here add, right here and now, while I am thinking about it, that I find the 'attempt' (and that by anyone, regarding any subject), to play off some other Scriptures, by attempting to subvert them and make them somehow 'inferior' to "the words of Jesus" (especially given that the book of the Revelation is specifically said to be "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" who himself spoke and gave it. (Rev. 1:1-20), and Jesus himself declarted that "the Scriptures cannot be broken" (Jn. 10:35), and Scripture itself declares that "All Scripture is 'God-breathed-out'" (II Tim. 3:16, literally, and ESV) , and the Scriptures came by the word and inspiration of God, the Holy Spirit (II Pet. 1:19-21), or by implying that 'Well, the OT may teach that, but now Jesus 'corrected' this, somehow', as reprehensible and, frankly, as beneath contempt. There is all the difference in the world in "fulfilling" Scripture, and "correcting" Scripture! And I embold and underline this for emphasis.

It speaks of a resurrection in the future but that is of the just and the unjust.

First resurrection says, lived and reigned (past tense).

Three individuals, including me, have already addressed the 'tense' usage of the Greek language, in Rev. 20, to you, in other threads, if my memory serves, although there may have been even more. I suggest you might consider reading what the other two have already said, for I seriously doubt that you are in the least bit willing to listen to this from any "dispy" type, such as I am.

FTR, the first "dispensationalist", as well as the first "covenenter" was none other than the LORD, himself, with Adam, then Noah, and so on, and the individuals who actually use the words "oikonomos", "oikonomeO", and "oikonomia" from which we get the word "dispensation" in Scripture, are Luke, Jesus, Paul, and Peter. Personally, I figure that is very good company to be associated with.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Hey! Nice ad hominem!

Of course, there is that little, insignificant matter that your crack is entirely inaccurate.

First, I did not address the verses below, in the thread, so why is it that you accuse me, here, of 'glossing over' it, or anything else, for that matter.
Second, as always, I make no attempt speak for any other, as to what "they" may or may not either say or do, or have done in the past. FTR, I have addressed these verses, in the past, if I recall correctly, without searching for any 6-10 hours.Some of these (OT) saints were raised, at this time [but not all, as there was a 'resurrection' prophesied that is still yet future. (Dan. 12:1-3)]. As there is no mention, anywhere, of them being around after the Lord ascended into heaven after the forty days, these were undoubtedly taken up with Jesus at His ascension, and were/are those who constituted the "wave-sheaf" 'offering' brought before the Father, by the Son, the Great High Priest. (Ex. 29:24; Lev. 23:10-12; I Cor. 15:23; Heb. 4:14; 9:11). David was one of those who was not raised, at this time. (Acts. 2:29,34; 13:34) And the language of Job suggests that neither was Job to be raised then, but later. (Job. 19:25; cp. Job 14:14; Rom. 8:23)

See what I just wrote, above.

I disagree, not with the Scripture, here, but your interpretation of it.
First, Acts 12:1 has no bearing on any possible "church" in the OT (nor about what 'John, the Baptist' spoke, for that was the original statement on which I commented), so the verse is irrelevant, in the context of the question.
Second, I am using, as always, "church" to specifically speak of those believers, in the church, both local ,and general, that was future, when Jesus first mentioned a church, which he called "my church" - HIS "ekklEsia" (or 'ecclesia', as one may prefer in transliteration of the Greek word) - or (called-out) assembly, and which is described as being "his body", composed of both "Jews and Gentiles". The Greek word "ecclesia" rendered here as "church" in the KJV, does not refer to this, in its context, and nowhere but here, and in to my knowledge, is "ecclesia" even specifically associated with "Israel", in any manner whatsoever, let alone in the matter of believers. Unlike the NT "church", the Body of Christ, which is composed, in her entirety of believers, Israel was not even close in this aspect. Nor did national 'Israel', even "redeemed Israel", possess other characteristics associated with "the church", such as having the Holy Spirit indwell individuals; the baptism of the Holy Spirit, church ordinances, etc. Every one of the redeemed, from Abel forward, until the time of the church, were just as saved and secure as you or I, and that by faith in God, apart from works, based on the then yet future blood offering of the Son, but none were a part of Christ's 'spiritual' body. I have often said that the 'meanest', 'merest, youngest and/or poorest Christian of today, has far more than Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Elijah, or any other OT believer could have even possibly envisioned.

Oh yes they did have Laws, ordinances and statues. They had preacher, temples, altars and scripture says they were a church.

There was none greater 'born' of woman than John the Baptist. I got more!

Enoch and Noah "walked with God"! I got 'em beat "by a mile"!

Job looked and waited for a resurrection. He's still a-waitin'; I done got mine! It's 'aorist' tense! Done happened! Like Paul, when he wrote about it, I just ain't got around to physically experiencing it yet. (Eph. 2:5-6; Col. 3:1)

David and Solomon "built the House of God". Not even close.

David - the man after God's own heart. What a wannabe'! God, the Holy Spirit, personally lives in yours and mine!

The church changed from natural worship to spiritual worship.

Because everyone did not come out of the grave when the Lord did, does not make it any less of a resurrection!


I don't for one second think I'm as faithful as these saints generally were, by any stretch of imagination, so I'm not trying to brag, here, in any way. Every one that is a believer, is in the same crowd as I am, in this.

OK, so I got sidetracked, for a minute. Back to the "church". If we consider "the assembly (ekklEsia) in the wilderness" [and I believe this is most accurately rendered as 'assembly', as in the NIV, AMP, NLT, NAB, YLT, DARBY, GWT, WEB, and TNIV, among others - even Tyndale, a century before the KJV, rendered this as 'congregation', a way that is, IMO, while less acceptable than 'assembly', is still far better than "church". The ASV, NASB, ESV, HCSB, and WEY, among others, follow Tyndale, here.] The 1917 Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) has this to say, about "church" in the notes, and generally sums up (far better than I) what I've tried to get across, here.Likewise, if one is to 'count' this "ekklEsia" of Israel, as being the same as that of the NT 'church', then one would be obligated to 'count' the mob 'assembly' found in Acts 19:21-41, as well as the 'lawful' one the clerk spoke of in contrast, in Acts. 19:39 as a "church" as well. Same word, "ekklEsia", all churches? I don't think so.Right here, in Rev. 20. This whole passage is future as it follows the return of the Lord in Chapter 19, and is a continuation of the progression John records that starts many chapters earlier, and continues, without interruption on through the end of the book. The connective words and phrases of "Then", "Now", "and", and "After these things" show this clearly. One has to attempt to "read theology" into the book, to arbitrarily pick and choose when this is a progression, and when something "jumps out of time", so to speak, to 'stand alone', and then with no warning, jusp back into a chronology, when the language and progression doesn't change.

My understanding of the word "church" was an assembly then and now.

BTW, I'll also here add, right here and now, while I am thinking about it, that I find the 'attempt' (and that by anyone, regarding any subject), to play off some other Scriptures, by attempting to subvert them and make them somehow 'inferior' to "the words of Jesus" (especially given that the book of the Revelation is specifically said to be "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" who himself spoke and gave it. (Rev. 1:1-20), and Jesus himself declarted that "the Scriptures cannot be broken" (Jn. 10:35), and Scripture itself declares that "All Scripture is 'God-breathed-out'" (II Tim. 3:16, literally, and ESV) , and the Scriptures came by the word and inspiration of God, the Holy Spirit (II Pet. 1:19-21), or by implying that 'Well, the OT may teach that, but now Jesus 'corrected' this, somehow', as reprehensible and, frankly, as beneath contempt. There is all the difference in the world in "fulfilling" Scripture, and "correcting" Scripture! And I embold and underline this for emphasis.Three individuals, including me, have already addressed the 'tense' usage of the Greek language, in Rev. 20, to you, in other threads, if my memory serves, although there may have been even more. I suggest you might consider reading what the other two have already said, for I seriously doubt that you are in the least bit willing to listen to this from any "dispy" type, such as I am.

I rememer your attempt to address the (past tense), but I didn't accept it then and I do not accept it now. You seem to have an attitude, that if you say it, then it must be true.

Also, playing scripture off of scripture. If you misrepresent scripture in Rev. and say it is something different that what Jesus taught. I am not saying the scripture differs, I am saying you have it wrong, if it does not "line" up with the words of Jesus, in other words, "START OVER".

FTR, the first "dispensationalist", as well as the first "covenenter" was none other than the LORD, himself, with Adam, then Noah, and so on, and the individuals who actually use the words "oikonomos", "oikonomeO", and "oikonomia" from which we get the word "dispensation" in Scripture, are Luke, Jesus, Paul, and Peter. Personally, I figure that is very good company to be associated with.

Ed

Ed Sutton;
I have little doubt that several others on the BB, are absolutely as convinced as you are. (Or that I might be, but I just never allowed my personal ego to get the better of me, and to say these words, publicly.) You can't 'get in trouble' for what you think, as long as you don't say it.

Oh, and I thought you previously said you do not say or compare yourself with them and always being right.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

I agreed, this Bible example is ONE EXAMPLE of what I'm calling a 'resurrection1'. Here is an example of several resurrection1s which I wrote first in the early 1990s:
-------------------------------------------------

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/​

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/​

Five Resurrections:
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

407 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
I define this as Rapture2 = the pre-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1.
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 31 Mar 2008;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
I define this as Resurrection2 = the post-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

---------------------------

I guess I just wonder Ed, why if when the OT saints arose and it was resurrection1, as you have stated, then why is it no also the "first" resurrection, if it is resurrection 1?

I must say that through your explanations, I have been able to see where you are coming from. I respectfully disagee though.........

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

I guess I just wonder Ed, why if when the OT saints arose and it was resurrection1, as you have stated, then why is it no also the "first" resurrection, if it is resurrection 1?

I must say that through your explanations, I have been able to see where you are coming from. I respectfully disagee though.........

BBob,

Acting stupid is not a good debating techinque. In fact, it is so obvious

I've been exceptionally clear in what I said, and you are being obtuse

FIRST RESURRECTION is not the same as RESURRECTION1. However, FIRST RESURRECTION and RESURRECTION1 overlap in set membership.

The first resurrection is noted in the post above as Resurrections #3 and #4. Each of resurrections #2, #3, and #4 are an example of a resurrection1. Your balking at my words are helping to clarify what I believe and hope about the Resurrections.

What is going to happen when I beat your socks off with my discussion of the millennial messanc kingdom. You say it is now (I think, you aren't very good at defining what you are talking about. Did you know that the very existance of different denominations indicate that people read the same Bible assigning it different values?

My definlitions mean I can discuss new and exciting 'facts' that blow your socks off. Yep, I took two whole College level Bible classes (one on the Minor Prophets, one one about Paul: his history & teachings).

 

[Brother Bob]

Acting stupid is not a good debating techinque. In fact, it is so obvious

I've been exceptionally clear in what I said, and you are being obtuse

You have been very confusing, calling the Number 1 resurrection, #3 and #4. What kind of language is that?

FIRST RESURRECTION is not the same as RESURRECTION1. However, FIRST RESURRECTION and RESURRECTION1 overlap in set membership.

The first resurrection is noted in the post above as Resurrections #3 and #4. Each of resurrections #2, #3, and #4 are an example of a resurrection1. Your balking at my words are helping to clarify what I believe and hope about the Resurrections.

Yes I am balking at your words, for you are calling the Number 1, three or four.

What is going to happen when I beat your socks off with my discussion of the millennial messanc kingdom. You say it is now (I think, you aren't very good at defining what you are talking about. Did you know that the very existance of different denominations indicate that people read the same Bible assigning it different values?

I was accused earlier of saying "I", well you have just championed me.

My definlitions mean I can discuss new and exciting 'facts' that blow your socks off. Yep, I took two whole College level Bible classes (one on the Minor Prophets, one one about Paul: his history & teachings).
Same God yesterday, today and forevermore.

Well well, look at me, am I doing good or what.



Discussing new and exciting facts is your problem, they are facts to you, but they are not true.

If you us the resurrection 1 as fact, then that is number 1, Lord knows how many resurrections, you will come up with. From here on out, you can consider the tone of this discussion, came from you. Period.

Being number 1 and being first is the same.

You haven't, neither are you going to beat the socks off of me.

I think some of your formulas are not acting stupid, but really are stupid, now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Also, I said the MK was over, I did not say it is now, so don't play stupid, just read more closely.

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

I've already explained how the rapture2 (resurrection1 followed by a rapture1) and the resurrection2 (resurrection1 followed by a rapture1) [both mentioned in Revelation 20-4, connected by an ampersand [&] together constitue the PRE-MILLINNIAL (before the millennial messanic kingdom) FIRST RESURRECTION of Revelation 20:5. Wow! two events together constitute the FIRST RESURRECTION. But some people can't understand the simple fact: there are three different kinds of 'first' none of which mean ONE AND ONLY ONE. IF a person wants to specify ONE AND ONLY ONE, there are words in English that express ONE AND ONLY ONE and they are not the word 'first'. So some of the dense insist that 'first' = ONE AND ONLY ONE - but their ignorance (not knowing) preceeds them like a shock wave following a hypersonic plane or rocket . Yep, I've blown some socks off in my day. Be glad you aren't an evolution believing, big bang banking agnostic - you'd be naked. (more than just socks blown off).

----------------------------
Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


5. Revelation 20:4

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period
----------------------------------------------------

Let's hear it for the physical/literal Millennial Messanic Kingdom -- acoming to an earth near you just a tad more than 7 years from now.

YEA for JESUS!

-

 

[Ed Edwards]

//I guess I just wonder Ed, why if when the OT saints arose and it was resurrection1, as you have stated, then why is it no also the "first" resurrection, if it is resurrection 1?//

I guess nobody taught you any communication skills? using the same term for the same thing every time makes for dull operating manuals, but it also helps avoid mistakes (which one doesn't want to make when dealing with both rocket science and brain surgery). Unfortunately the writers of the Bible didn't know this technique nor the one about NOT using the same word with multiple meanings. That is why I differ between 'resurrection1' 'resurrection2' resurrrection3 and the Lord's resurrection that enables them all.

So instead of debating my points, I find that some people want to 'act dumb' -- Bad debating technique! Surely the Lord will give you a three point sermon represented by words that start with the same sound???

 

[Brother Bob]

I've already explained how the rapture2 (resurrection1 followed by a rapture1) and the resurrection2 (resurrection1 followed by a rapture1) [both mentioned in Revelation 20-4, connected by an ampersand [&] together constitue the PRE-MILLINNIAL (before the millennial messanic kingdom) FIRST RESURRECTION of Revelation 20:5. Wow! two events together constitute the FIRST RESURRECTION. But some people can't understand the simple fact: there are three different kinds of 'first' none of which mean ONE AND ONLY ONE. IF a person wants to specify ONE AND ONLY ONE, there are words in English that express ONE AND ONLY ONE and they are not the word 'first'. So some of the dense insist that 'first' = ONE AND ONLY ONE - but their ignorance (not knowing) preceeds them like a shock wave following a hypersonic plane or rocket . Yep, I've blown some socks off in my day. Be glad you aren't an evolution believing, big bang banking agnostic - you'd be naked. (more than just socks blown off).

Men are making a fortune off of what you advocate. You are one in a river of men, writing eschatologys, and almost all of you differ, and you are not different. I see at the bottom of this post, You know the hour that Jesus is coming, there have others before you and turned out to be fools.

And where have you given scripture that Jesus will reign on earth in the MK. Where have you given scripture that there will be bodies there in the MK, when it says "souls"

----------------------------
Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


5. Revelation 20:4

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
It says "souls" lived and reigned (past tense)
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
Again it was the "souls", if it were happenening today, you could not see it.

BTW, I don't care what you believe, I want scripture, show me scripture where there were all these resurrections.
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

That took place when Jesus arose from the dead, when many of the bodies of the saints arose after He arose and went into that Holy City. It has already happened.

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints
Souls only.

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

Here you say that there is raptue 2 before resurrection 1, and rapture 1 comes after rapture 2, when they all are resurrections.
First (1) resurrection is already happened. Resurrection is to come when the just and the unjust will be raised from the dead, or at least according to Jesus Christ.

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period
Here resurrection 2 comes after resurrection 1 followed by a rapture 1.
----------------------------------------------------

ED Edward: Let's hear it for the physical/literal Millennial Messanic Kingdom -- acoming to an earth near you just a tad more than 7 years from now.

BBob and scripture:
Mat 24:36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


YEA for JESUS!

-

Ed knows the hour!!!!!!!!!!!! You are not alone in predicting the coming of the Lord, but they all turned out to be fools.

My neighbor's wife, stripped naked and ran down the road completely naked some years back, hollowering "Jesus is coming, Jesus is coming" , You are not one of them are you ED.


I see that I am starting to get inside of your head.................

BTW, my socks are still on.

 

[Brother Bob]

//I guess I just wonder Ed, why if when the OT saints arose and it was resurrection1, as you have stated, then why is it no also the "first" resurrection, if it is resurrection 1?//

I guess nobody taught you any communication skills? using the same term for the same thing every time makes for dull operating manuals, but it also helps avoid mistakes (which one doesn't want to make when dealing with both rocket science and brain surgery). Unfortunately the writers of the Bible didn't know this technique nor the one about NOT using the same word with multiple meanings. That is why I differ between 'resurrection1' 'resurrection2' resurrrection3 and the Lord's resurrection that enables them all.

So instead of debating my points, I find that some people want to 'act dumb' -- Bad debating technique! Surely the Lord will give you a three point sermon represented by words that start with the same sound???

I would much rather give a sermon, that the congregation can understand and go read in the scripture to be true, than give one based upon the writings of men, tables, formulas, several resurrections, going to heaven, then coming back from heaven, then going to heaven.

If you relate to people you speak and say what it is, not something in your brain, for we are not mind readers. Your whole theory is based upon Daniel and the 1 day = a year theory, which in Numbers and Ezekial, it speaks of a 1 day = a year, every how long a year is in the Lord's time, but no where in Daniel does it speak of 1 day = a year.

BBob,

ED Edward: Let's hear it for the physical/literal Millennial Messanic Kingdom -- acoming to an earth near you just a tad more than 7 years from now.

BBob and scripture:
Mat 24:36¶But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


YEA for JESUS!

I would say, that you are the only person on this board, that knows the time of the return of Jesus......................

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Also, I said the MK was over, I did not say it is now, so don't play stupid, just read more closely.//

(BTW, I prefer Millennial Messanic Kingdom (MMK) to plain MK -- it ties the term more fully to the 1,000 year Millennial Day.)

1. What is the MK? (I'm looking for a definition, preferably from the scripture)

2. When is the MK (most time periods have scritpure that tell the beginning event and the ending event).

3. What historical facts mark the scriptural beginning of the MK and the scriptural end of the MK? (unless the start was documentd in the NT = New Testament).

4. Is the MK related to the 'last days'?

Luke 21:24 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And they shall fall on the edge of the sword, and shalbe led captiue into all nations, and Hierusalem shalbe troden vnder foote of the Gentiles, vntill the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

4a. Is the 'time of the Gentiles' the MK or 'last days'?
(of not, delineate the start and stop events).

5. Is the "fulness of the Gentiles" related to:
a. the MK?
b. the 'last days'?
c. the 'time(s)s of the Gentiles'?

5d. If none of the above, deleniate the beginning and end events predicted in the Scripture. Relate to the History of the World.

Rom 11:25 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret (least ye should bee arrogant in your selues) that partly obstinacie is come to Israel, vntill the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in.