Mistakes, lies, false witness,and such sins..

[Iconoclast]

JonC

I am not doubting your experience and am sorry you had to go through such hurtful things (I assume on a Christian board).

I did not say it was my experience. I gave an illustration to illustrate how the sin described in the OP. could happen. Discussion of the sin and how to correct it is what is important.

I do know how you feel. I have also encountered believers who were less than Christ like in their behavior. But what I have found is that in Christ we can forgive those who we believe have wronged us.

I do believe we can forgive such sin ,if and when the person confesses such sin openly and repents of it. When such a sinful conduct is not repented of, forgiveness is not happening.

I learned long ago not to provide feedback without knowing the other side of the story, and even then it is rarely advisable. I can take you at your word, that at least you believe your report to be true.

The issue of prov 6 is what is important.

 

[JonC]

JonC

I did not say it was my experience. I gave an illustration to illustrate how the sin described in the OP. could happen. Discussion of the sin and how to correct it is what is important.


I do believe we can forgive such sin ,if and when the person confesses such sin openly and repents of it. When such a sinful conduct is not repented of, forgiveness is not happening.



The issue of prov 6 is what is important.

Sorry. At first I thought it was an illustration but then I thought you said you had seen it in real life.

I am glad that this has not happened to you.

Some of your illustration has happened to me. There was a man who made false accusations against me on one online site (he was corrected by the staff). But not long afterwards he followed me with these accusations on an entirely different site. He was corrected there as well (by the administration of that site). He kept on and I think they banned him, but I am not sure.

I run into this man every now and then online. He still confesses to be a Christian but he harbors this sense of being wronged. He thinks I (and a few others that have disagreed with his views) have wronged him and he simply cannot let go of the hatred and resentment is consuming him. I think most see how it is affecting his judgment and discernment. He finds fault in others where there is no fault to be found while being oblivious to the cancer in his own spiritual life. He simply cannot see how sin is affecting him and his interactions, partly because he is unconcerned with spiritual matters while intently focused on getting the "facts" of theology correct.

But for my part, I simply forgave the man. He was wrong, but I think he believed he was right. I do not need for him to admit or even realize he was mistaken and had made an error in judgment. The reason I forgive is that I have been forgiven. A gospel that does not give one that power (the power to love, the power to forgive , the heart to obey) is no gospel at all. I forgive because I am free from the bondage of sin.

We are commanded to forgive even our enemies - NOT only those who repent but to forgive even those who would persecute us. That is my belief anyway.

There is no difference between the Christian who lies and the Christian who keeps a record of it. Both are mired in sin, disobedient, and in need of repentance.

My advice to the hypothetical guy is to trust in Christ, obey God, and not allow himself to be mastered by sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

The problem here is when someone is a liar, a habitual liar, they get really good at it.
What if the man who is lying gets believed by the staff on a messageboard?
Others see the lie and offer comments but the staff does not really follow the trail of lies to the root of it.

Others get confused and annoyed with the bickering and just want it to go away..
I can understand how it happens. However, failing to deal with the liar does not remove the problem as the person bearing false witness and slander lives to fight another day so to speak.
That is the damage done. If a dentist does not drill out all the decay in a tooth and it gets covered up, eventually it comes back infecting all around it.

So you say it did happen to you? Could you provide the actual firsthand links, so we can understand both sides of it? What did he accuse you of? was there any truth to his claims or was it all lies.

 

[JonC]

The problem here is when someone is a liar, a habitual liar, they get really good at it.
What if the man who is lying gets believed by the staff on a messageboard?
Others see the lie and offer comments but the staff does not really follow the trail of lies to the root of it.

Others get confused and annoyed with the bickering and just want it to go away..
I can understand how it happens. However, failing to deal with the liar does not remove the problem as the person bearing false witness and slander lives to fight another day so to speak.
That is the damage done. If a dentist does not drill out all the decay in a tooth and it gets covered up, eventually it comes back infecting all around it.

I do not think that it matters. As a Christian I believe we do not keep a "record of wrongs". As a member of online forums I think that we report anything we see as a violation of rules or inappropriate and then our responsibility is done. My responsibility in the issue is to exhibit a Christ-likeness. Sometimes I struggle, but that is all I need to do. It is faith.

So you say it did happen to you? Could you provide the actual firsthand links, so we can understand both sides of it? What did he accuse you of? was there any truth to his claims or was it all lies.

Something like that happened to me, yes. But no, I will not provide actual firsthand links as I believe this would move the conversation from the topic of how Christians deal with issues to actual gossip. Gossip is, IMHO, a sin even if the information being spoken about is true.

As I said, I think that the man in question actually believes what he has said to be true (I think that this is why he followed me with the false accusations onto another site). He continues to stalk a few other people as well. But sin has clouded his judgment and he is consumed by hatred and resentment. Others who have been involved have noted the same thing (but he has not been active on the other forum for awhile, so if he is not banned perhaps God is working in his life). I've forgiven him. His struggle with sin in his own life is between him and God - not for you or anyone else to investigate and judge. So we can talk about principles but I will not engage gossip.

I hope you understand and can respect my convictions. I genuinely believe that gossip is a sin and think we have to be very careful about our conversations (I believe we will be held accountable for our words and actions).

 

[Iconoclast]

The problem here is when someone is a liar, a habitual liar, they get really good at it.
What if the man who is lying gets believed by the staff on a messageboard?
Others see the lie and offer comments but the staff does not really follow the trail of lies to the root of it.

Others get confused and annoyed with the bickering and just want it to go away..
I can understand how it happens. However, failing to deal with the liar does not remove the problem as the person bearing false witness and slander lives to fight another day so to speak.
That is the damage done. If a dentist does not drill out all the decay in a tooth and it gets covered up, eventually it comes back infecting all around it.

So you say it did happen to you? Could you provide the actual firsthand links, so we can understand both sides of it? What did he accuse you of? was there any truth to his claims or was it all lies.

On second thought most people cannot follow such back and forth discussion. It takes too much time to get the sequence of events correct.
We will just have to leave such people to the judgment of God...Like Nathan and David; thou art the man.

5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:

6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

God knew all about it, even thou it had been covered from the eyes of others.

 

[JonC]

On second thought most people cannot follow such back and forth discussion. It takes too much time to get the sequence of events correct.
We will just have to leave such people to the judgment of God...Like Nathan and David; thou art the man.

5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:

6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

God knew all about it, even thou it had been covered from the eyes of others.

Exactly. This is what I am talking about.

And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man.

So many times men see the "sins" of others but not the sin in their own lives. But God knows and will discipline those who are His own.

My answer to the OP is that there is no difference between the Christian who lies and the Christian who keeps a record of it. Both are mired in sin, disobedient, and in need of repentance.

We, who are in Christ, can forgive freely because we have been freely forgiven. We are liberated from the bondage that sin has held over us. Those who find themselves unable to forgive, who remain in the shackles and bondage of hatred and sin, do not need an unforgiving Christian demanding he repent but Christ as the fruit betrays the tree.

In my case (the man who was guilty of bearing false witness against me) I think he believes his accusations are true. A couple of members PM'd me asking if there was an underlying mental condition with the man (to the point of the OP), but I do not think so. I would not say his behavior was demonic but I do think his judgment is clouded by sin that he has carefully nursed in his heart. He comes across as a very bitter, hate-filled man.

So what should I do? I believe I am to forgive the man and pray for him. That's all. Not expose the guy or demand he repent publically. But forgive and move on.

 

[tyndale1946]

Exactly. This is what I am talking about.

And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man.

So many times men see the "sins" of others but not the sin in their own lives. But God knows and will discipline those who are His own.

My answer to the OP is that there is no difference between the Christian who lies and the Christian who keeps a record of it. Both are mired in sin, disobedient, and in need of repentance.

We, who are in Christ, can forgive freely because we have been freely forgiven. We are liberated from the bondage that sin has held over us. Those who find themselves unable to forgive, who remain in the shackles and bondage of hatred and sin, do not need an unforgiving Christian demanding he repent but Christ as the fruit betrays the tree.

In my case (the man who was guilty of bearing false witness against me) I think he believes his accusations are true. A couple of members PM'd me asking if there was an underlying mental condition with the man (to the point of the OP), but I do not think so. I would not say his behavior was demonic but I do think his judgment is clouded by sin that he has carefully nursed in his heart. He comes across as a very bitter, hate-filled man.

So what should I do? I believe I am to forgive the man and pray for him. That's all. Not expose the guy or demand he repent publically. But forgive and move on.

In responding to posts this is what I do... Now maybe other don't do this but this is me... I have mellowed out over the years and when back in day, I would read something and think... Well I going to give this brother a piece of my mind... Then usually let my passion take over, I have different tactic now... I will write about the way I feel but instead of addressing it at the time, I will let it sit for a day or two, and go back to it and look at it again... Am I in the same frame of mind I was before?... Usually not... So what I was going to post after I reviewed it again, I delete. Well I was going to add more but after thinking about it I deleted it, Ill let that sit too, maybe for another time... Now I just browse and watch and respond now and then... Its a good thing a didn't have that tap talk thingy back then, I would have probably been banned every time I hit the button... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

In responding to posts this is what I do... Now maybe other don't do this but this is me... I have mellowed out over the years and when back in day, I would read something and think... Well I going to give this brother a piece of my mind... Then usually let my passion take over, I have different tactic now... I will write about the way I feel but instead of addressing it at the time, I will let it sit for a day or two, and go back to it and look at it again... Am I in the same frame of mind I was before?... Usually not... So what I was going to post after I reviewed it again, I delete. Well I was going to add more but after thinking about it I deleted it, Ill let that sit too, maybe for another time... Now I just browse and watch and respond now and then... Its a good thing a didn't have that tap talk thingy back then, I would have probably been banned every time I hit the button... Brother Glen

Over time I have learned two things about many of the insults tossed my way. First, they are often deserved. Second, they really do not matter. When we take an eternal outlook then what matters is uplifting one another, not tearing one another down.

It is odd. The older I get the less patient I am (I thought it would be the opposite), but countering this is the idea that the less important little disagreements seem. It balances out, I guess.

I'm a fair and balanced kinda guy.

 

[JonC]

The bottom line is this is just an exercise in "what if's" (a "Strawman thread") . I do not want anyone to draw the wrong conclusions.

@Iconoclast confirmed his was but an illustration (that it never really happened). I have no reason to suspect he is lying.

My experience with the lost "brother" was on another forum.

I don't want people to draw unwarranted conclusions.

 

[Iconoclast]

The bottom line is this is just an exercise in "what if's" (a "Strawman thread") . I do not want anyone to draw the wrong conclusions.

@Iconoclast confirmed his was but an illustration (that it never really happened). I have no reason to suspect he is lying.

My experience with the lost "brother" was on another forum.

I don't want people to draw unwarranted conclusions.

I did use an illustration, but I did not confirm or deny what really happened or did not happen, as that is not the thrust of the OP.
The Op was addressing professing believers who sin in this prov.6 kind of way.

I have seen this in real life on this forum and on 3 others, so it is an issue that is quite real and needs to be dealt with.

Proverbs 26:20
Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

Proverbs 26:22
The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

 

[JonC]

I did use an illustration, but I did not confirm or deny what really happened or did not happen, as that is not the thrust of the OP.
The Op was addressing professing believers who sin in this prov.6 kind of way.

I have seen this in real life on this forum and on 3 others, so it is an issue that is quite real and needs to be dealt with.

Proverbs 26:20
Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

Proverbs 26:22
The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

If it is something you experienced in real life then I am sorry that you experienced it at the hands of professing Christians (even if Mormon). I know how you feel because I did experience something similar by a professing Christian (not Mormon but Reformed Baptist....which I admit colored my perception of the group).

As I said, I think that the man in question actually believes his assumptions to be true, but I think sin has clouded his judgment as it is obvious (to anyone who has conversed with him) that he is consumed by hatred and resentment. I've forgiven him. His struggle with sin in his own life is between him and God. I am not the only person who has observed that he comes off as a bitter, hate-filled man. I do not know why he is unaware of his sin, or why he is so obsessed with evil. But I think that sin is often like an addiction. When people give sin a foothold it takes so much of them without their knowledge.

Anyway, I am sorry that you experienced whatever you experienced. If it helps, I forgave the man who spoke falsely about me and just left him to God. What he does is between him and God (it really is not my business and I do not care except insofar as I may help him move away from sin).

Perhaps you could consider that Mormonism is not Christianity (we do not expect the world to behave as if they are saved because they are not). Personally I doubt the man who falsely accused me is a Christian (regardless of his profession because of his actions... he is known to be a hate-filled man on more than one site). But that is even more reason for me to treat him in love.

 

[JonC]

There are a couple of things I think that can be said, especially regarding religious and political forums (they tend to be the worst.....these things don't happen on my literature forum).

First, very often the one with the complaint is making assumptions against another person that are usually false. He or she cannot prove the charge that they would levy against the other person(s) but they have convinced themselves that their assumptions are true and the only possible conclusion because they need to be a victim of something or someone.

Second, most of the time the one complaining is doing so because he or she is wearing their feelings on their sleeves and should not be engaging people in a debate/ discussion board to begin with.

It is unfortunate that online debate forums often lack the charity afforded other types of debates. I think sometimes people wander into these types of forums unprepared to be questioned about their views, unable to defend their beliefs, and unaware of opposing positions. Add to this an individual that is immature and not well versed in Christian doctrine and you have a powder keg of hurt feelings that will explode upon the slightest offensive spark. A weak mind and a strongly opinioned board do not mix very well.

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC,

First, very often the one with the complaint is making assumptions against another person that are usually false. He or she cannot prove the charge that they would levy against the other person(s) but they have convinced themselves that their assumptions are true and the only possible conclusion because they need to be a victim of something or someone.

Second, most of the time the one complaining is doing so because he or she is wearing their feelings on their sleeves and should not be engaging people in a debate/ discussion board to begin with.

It is unfortunate that online debate forums often lack the charity afforded other types of debates. I think sometimes people wander into these types of forums unprepared to be questioned about their views, unable to defend their beliefs, and unaware of opposing positions. Add to this an individual that is immature and not well versed in Christian doctrine and you have a powder keg of hurt feelings that will explode upon the slightest offensive spark. A weak mind and a strongly opinioned board do not mix very well.

I have seen that the professed Christian who lies and bears false witness is 100% responsible.
The person sinned against is not wearing anything on their sleeve, is not making false accusations, does not have a weak mind , or anything else.
The person sinning against him is totally at fault, despite all the lying and covering sins.

Proverbs puts the sin and fault on the talebearer, I do not see Proverbs blaming the victim.

 

[JonC]

"JonC,



I have seen that the professed Christian who lies and bears false witness is 100% responsible.
The person sinned against is not wearing anything on their sleeve, is not making false accusations, does not have a weak mind , or anything else.
The person sinning against him is totally at fault, despite all the lying and covering sins.

Proverbs puts the sin and fault on the talebearer, I do not see Proverbs blaming the victim.

I do not think you can simply claim Proverbs (the LDS guy probably thinks the same of you).

I think the best course of action is to stand in and for Christ.

I can rightfully say thay I do not falsely accuse others, I do not harbor grudges, I have not lied on any forum to which I belong, I have not stalked anyone. That is my responsibility - my actions.

Do you see what I mean?

I have not done those things. I do not answer for other people (not for the Mormon you say wronged you, not for the man who falsely accused me). Those who do those things, if against me, I forgive. What is between them and God is their business, not mine.

I think you should report the LDS guy to the administration of the board you were speaking of. They can see he only addressed you. They can see what was falsely said (if truely false and not a misunderstanding). Turn it over to them for the forum (for the other members) and move on.

We are not responsible for the sins or perceived sins of other people. All we are responsible to do is forgive as we have been forgiven and be Christ to the world.

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast,

Please consider this concerning your disagreement with the LDS member on the other forum:

Sin is sin. There is no difference between the person who lies and the person who keeps a record of it. Both are mired in sin, disobedient, and in need of repentance.

By nature the LDS member is in a state of sin - mastered by sin. But you, being a Christian, are not mastered by sin.

Do you see what I am getting at? The Mormon sins and is mastered by sin. If you do not forgive him, if you "keep a record of wrongs", then you slander the gospel itself because you are not mastered by sin.

Does that make sense?

We, as Christians, cannot be openly sinful while pointing out the so s of the world. We have to obey. We are called to be a holy people.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I have not done those things. I do not answer for other people (not for the Mormon you say wronged you,

I think you should report the LDS guy to the administration of the board you were speaking of.

No...it was not the Mormon cultist who wronged me.
What made this sin so grievous was the person who professed to be a Christian, teamed up with the Mormon cultist to oppose me.
I mentioned an example that used a Mormon, but it was an example.
This twisted posting which is almost unbelievable
This demonstrates a spiritually perverted agenda that is not interested with truth or God's glory.
Many would think it could not happen but it did. I leave such people to God.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Please consider this concerning your disagreement with the LDS member on the other forum:

I confronted the error of the Mormon and made an attempt to speak the truth of the true gospel to her. I never leave a cultist with any hope outside of Christ. To have a professed Christian side with the cultist was sinfully disappointing, but I survived it.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



No...it was not the Mormon cultist who wronged me.
What made this sin so grievous was the person who professed to be a Christian, teamed up with the Mormon cultist to oppose me.
I mentioned an example that used a Mormon, but it was an example.
This twisted posting which is almost unbelievable
This demonstrates a spiritually perverted agenda that is not interested with truth or God's glory.
Many would think it could not happen but it did. I leave such people to God.

Sorry. I thought you were talking about a Mormon on another forum. I must have misread somewhere.

The point, however, is the same.

Report the guy on the other forum and let the administration handle things. They can see histories. Let them know the guy is only addressing you (that may not be against the rules but it is strange). But forgive the guy and move on. You cannot address the splinter in that guy's eye if you have a log in yours.

 

[JonC]

JonC,


I confronted the error of the Mormon and made an attempt to speak the truth of the true gospel to her. I never leave a cultist with any hope outside of Christ. To have a professed Christian side with the cultist was sinfully disappointing, but I survived it.

I can't say. I guess it depends on the discussion.

I would not disagree with a Mormon if they were correct or agree with a Christian if he was incorrect. We have to be honest people (truth matters).

What doctrine were you debating with a Mormon to begin with?

Also, how did the other guy (the one who only posts to you) end up agreeing with the Mormon if he only posts to you?

A good rule of thumb is to discuss theology only with Christians and evangelize the lost. That may save you some hurt feelings in the future should the situation again arise.

 

[JonC]

I do not want folks to get the wrong idea.

Looking at our posts and considering our past I think I probably should emphasize that the issue @Iconoclast is having is not with me. I have never posted only to him, followed him, lied about him or held LDS doctrine. Last year we were on another forum (Christian Board) but I had been active months before encountering him on a thread.

For months @Iconoclast and I have not interacted in other forums at all. (Just want to prevent rumors).

I do not know @Iconoclast personally but in the context of online discussions we do not like each other. That is one reason I am replying to him. I do not like him but I do love him and will do my best to show him how to interact with people you may not like. Our personal likes and dislikes do not matter.

I just want to be clear given our history.

I believe we need to be open and honest. As such, @Iconoclast, I recommend that you reach out to this guy on the other forum. If you let this issue wait a week then it will start to fester and you risk sin and hate entering your heart. A good principle is not to let the sun go down on these things. Take care if these things quickly. If not a week can quickly become a month (and by then sin could have found root). Be killing sin or sin will be killing you.

But take care of the issue on the other forum. Since the guy is not here we risk a movement towards gossip and rumors.