Mistakes, lies, false witness,and such sins..

[Iconoclast]

JonC

I do not want folks to get the wrong idea.

Why would folks get the wrong idea? Post whatever is on your heart and mind. The readers will know what they are reading,

[QUOTE]Looking at our posts and considering our past I think I probably should emphasize that the issue @Iconoclast is having is not with me[/QUOTE].

I have never posted only to him, followed him, lied about him or held LDS doctrine.

Have you posted anything that would be taken in any of those ways?
Why would random people think such a thing?
Has anyone suggested that it was you?
Iconoclast gave some illustrations and then posted about real-life experiences that he has witnessed.

Last year we were on another forum (Christian Board) but I had been active months before encountering him on a thread.

What forum are you speaking of?

For months @Iconoclast and I have not interacted in other forums at all. (Just want to prevent rumors).

We can look into that

I do not know @Iconoclast personally but in the context of online discussions we do not like each other

.
Why would you say that JonC? What is there not to like about you?

That is one reason I am replying to him.

So there are many reasons? interesting.

I do not like him

While sad, this is okay. I believe you are free to express your dislikes of Icon , and Calvinists, and doctrine. A forum is a place to turn it loose.

but I do love him and will do my best to show him how to interact with people you may not like. Our personal likes and dislikes do not matter.

If I want such help I will ask for it. A better idea might be you post what you want, I will post what I want, let the reader decide.

I just want to be clear given our history.

Our history was not the subject of the OP, which I will get back to shortly.

I believe we need to be open and honest

.

On a thread discussing lies, liars ,and false witness, that is probably a good thing to do.

As such, @Iconoclast, I recommend that you reach out to this guy on the other forum.

I did make an appeal for honesty, but it was covered up, ignored, and more lies were added.

If you let this issue wait a week then it will start to fester and you risk sin and hate entering your heart. A good principle is not to let the sun go down on these things. Take care if these things quickly.

Yes as you yourself have said truth matters. Sometimes the person bringing the truth looks as if he is then one who is contentious.
A person who is used to covering sin does it often, but sooner or later truth wins out.

But take care of the issue on the other forum. Since the guy is not here we risk a movement towards gossip and rumors.[/QUOTE]

I have nothing to hide so if it happens there, here, or somewhere else, it seems like getting to see the truth is important for Christians.
If the truths are seen it removes doubts, lies, and false witness.

 

[Iconoclast]

Charles BridgesCommentary on Proverbs;

16. These six things doth the Lord hate; yea, seven are an abomination

unto him: (of his soul, marg.) 17. A proud look, a lying tongue, and

hands that shed innocent blood, 18. An heart that deviseth wicked

imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19. A false

witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Man conceives of God in his heart as "such a one as himself"

(Ps. 1. 21), looking with indifference at sin. Here therefore Solomon

names six--yea—seven (Comp. chap. xxx. 15-18) abominations (most

of them mentioned in the preceding list) which the Lord--hateth—a proud

look,‡ a lying tongue,§ a blood-stained hand.|| And, lest we should

think, that he "looketh only on the outward appearance;" the heart,

active in devising wickedness,¶ is brought out ; and is ready organ, the

feet swift in running to mischief. (Chap. i. 16. Isa. ix. 7. Rom. iii. 1.5

How hateful also is the false witness (Zech. viii. 17), surely reserved by

him for judgment! (Chap. xix. 5. Zech. v. 4. Mal. ii 5.) Let the self-

willed separatist remember the double stamp (Vers:s 14, 19) upon him

that soweth discord among brethren. if the heavenly "dew descends


* ‘Frowardness,’ Heb. See POOLE's Synopsis—not one but many; the heart so filled

with them, that the vessel cannot hold more. Gen. vi. 5. Acts, x ii. 10.

† Ps. x. 7-9; xxxvi. 2-4. Compare the striking figure, Hos. vii. 6. Chap. xvi. 28.

Ps. lii. 2.

‡ Chap. viii. 13 ; xxx. 13. Ps. xviii. 27. Isa. ii. 12. Jer. i. 31—the examples of Pharaoh

—Ex, ix. 16. Haman—Esth. vii. 10. Nebuchadnezzar—Dan. iv. 28-33. Herod—Acts,

xii. 21-23.

§ Chap. xii. 22. Ps. v. 6. Rev. xxi. 8. Gehazi--2 Kings, v. 25-27. Ananias and Sapphira

—Acts, v. 1-10.

|| Gen. ix. 6. Cain—iv. 8-12. Manasseh— 2 Kings, xxi. 15, 16. Specially the mur-

derers of his dear Son—Matt. xxiii. 31-38.

¶ Ahithophel—2 Sam. xvi. 20-23; xvii. 23. Mic. ii. 1. 2 Pet. ii. 14.

 

[Iconoclast]

Matthew Henry Commentary;

Therefore the men of Belial must expect their ruin to come suddenly, and without remedy, because their practices are such as the Lord hates and are an abomination to him, v. 16. Those things which God hates it is no thanks to us to hate in others, but we must hate them in ourselves.

1. Haughtiness, conceitedness of ourselves, and contempt of others—a proud look. There are seven things that God hates, and pride is the first, because it is at the bottom of much sin and gives rise to it. God sees the pride in the heart and hates it there; but, when it prevails to that degree that the show of men’s countenance witnesses against them that they overvalue themselves and undervalue all about them, this is in a special manner hateful to him, for then pride is proud of itself and sets shame at defiance.

2. Falsehood, and fraud, and dissimulation. Next to a proud look nothing is more an abomination to God than a lying tongue; nothing more sacred than truth, nor more necessary to conversation than speaking truth. God and all good men hate and abhor lying.

3. Cruelty and blood-thirstiness. The devil was, from the beginning, a liar and a murderer (Jn. 8:44 ), and therefore, as a lying tongue, so hands that shed innocent blood are hateful to God, because they have in them the devil’s image and do him service.


4. Subtlety in the contrivance of sin, wisdom to do evil, a heart that designs and a head that devises wicked imaginations, that is acquainted with the depths of Satan and knows how to carry on a covetous, envious, revengeful plot, most effectually. The more there is of craft and management in sin the more it is an abomination to God.

5. Vigour and diligence in the prosecution of sin—feet that are swift in running to mischief, as if they were afraid of losing time or were impatient of delay in a thing they are so greedy of. The policy and vigilance, the eagerness and industry, of sinners, in their sinful pursuits, may shame us who go about that which is good so awkwardly and so coldly.

6. False-witness bearing, which is one of the greatest mischiefs that the wicked imagination can devise, and against which there is least fence. There cannot be a greater affront to God (to whom in an oath appeal is made) nor a greater injury to our neighbour (all whose interests in this world, even the dearest, lie open to an attack of this kind) than knowingly to give in a false testimony. There are seven things which God hates, and lying involves two of them; he hates it, and doubly hates it.

7. Making mischief between relations and neighbours, and using all wicked means possible, not only to alienate their affections one from another, but to irritate their passions one against another. The God of love and peace hates him that sows discord among brethren, for he delights in concord. Those that by tale-bearing and slandering, by carrying ill-natured stories, aggravating every thing that is said and done, and suggesting jealousies and evil surmises, blow the coals ofcontention, are but preparing for themselves a fire of the same nature.

 

[JonC]

Why would folks get the wrong idea? ...
Our history was not the subject of the OP...

I believe in being open and honest, as I know you do as well. So while you and I know that your comments are not about our history I think that given our history it is reasonable for others to conclude otherwise.

I thought it prudent (again given our history) to simply clarify and head off any false assumptions others may have.

We both testified that the person you were speaking of is not me. This should address any false assumptions before they start (we are both testifying publicly to the same fact).

No one has suggested it was me. Sometimes it is better to simply address potential issues before they materialize. That's all. I saw where false conclusions could be reached and addressed them.

(See, we can agree on things ).

Insofar as the person who caused you distress, I think it best that you address him/ her on the forum where it occurred. Continuing to discuss it here could end up leading towards gossip. There are things you indicated that the administrators of the other forum could easily verify (the guy following you there, posting only to you, etc.). I encourage you to deal with this on that other forum, forgive the guy and move on.

If this thread is an indicator it is approaching a week or so since this happened. Don't let the "sun go down" without resolving it. Otherwise you may find yourself still thinking about this a month later as sin has taken root in your own heart. It is not something to play around with.

 

[Iconoclast]

The OP. Is about the sins mentioned in Prov 6.
Many have not entered into the thread.
They might think they have no problem.
I did not mention anyone by name one way or another.
I did mention a Mormon woman and a Christian man .
The issue can be discussed without mentioning names.
I gave examples to point out it actually happened.

These sins need to be identified and dealt with, not just looked over and passed by.

Has anyone else seen such sin?
Did you take time to identify it ?
Did you speak directly against it?
If you saw it, and ignore it, are you enabling the sinful conduct to continue?

 

[JonC]

They might think they have no problem.

Do you have a "sin" problem (the sins mentioned in Proverbs 6)?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you have a "sin" problem (the tsins mentioned in Proverbs 6)?

I have seen problems that I do need to mortify but not particularly the ones and proverb 6.

 

[JonC]

I have seen problems that I do need to mortify but not particularly the ones and proverb 6.

I am about the same. What I have struggled with most in my lifetime is not Proverbs 6 (I have never been intentionally dishonest, lied, shed innocent blood, bore false witness, etc.) but Proverbs 11 (I can be prideful, arrogant, trusting in my self, seeking knowledge rather than wisdom).

Do you believe there is a fundamental difference between these sins?

 

[Iconoclast]

No...most sins are people trying to live on self righteousness rather than the righteousness of Jesus through faith.

 

[JonC]

No...most sins are people trying to live on self righteousness rather than the righteousness of Jesus through faith.

Ultimately I think all sin is like this.

Do you consider yourself equally disobedient and unrepentant as you would the guy on the other forum of which you spoke? Is there any difference between you and he, except for the sins to which each of you cling?

 

[Iconoclast]

Ultimately I think all sin is like this.

Do you consider yourself equally disobedient and unrepentant as you would the guy on the other forum of which you spoke? Is there any difference between you and he, except for the sins to which each of you cling?

No....bearing false witness is as evil in intent as murder.
His sin was pointed out to him but he doubled down, trying to lie on purpose .
He.might have a mental defect like a person who is criminally insane.

 

[JonC]

No....bearing false witness is as evil in intent as murder.
His sin was pointed out to him but he doubled down, trying to lie on purpose .
He.might have a mental defect like a person who is criminally insane.

I disagree to an extent. I cannot speak to the other guy (I am assuming your assessment is correct). But you seem to be doubling down on keeping a "record of wrongs". That I can address because I have first hand knowledge (per our conversation).

Disobeying God is a sin as bad as murder (worse, in fact, because it is directed at God and tramples the blood shed for us by denying the power of the gospel to chsnge a heart).

My point is you and I still have sins so we cannot sit in judgment against other Christians.

Like you point out, you have been making assumptions regarding the other man. Perhaps he has a mental illness and his behavior is beyond his control. That would make the only sin in the matter your sin of disobedience by keeping this record of wrongs against him.

You say the man holds LDS doctrine. Mormons consider themselves Christian. Perhaps he is really Mormon and lost. There sre so many variables the only thing we can see without a doubt is your disobedience.

Maybe you should post to the guy on that other forum instead of talking about him here. Confess your sin to him and truly repent. If you do then perhaps God will use your own bedience to address his disobedience (assuming your assessment is correct). If you misjudged the situation then at least you would have repented of your sin in the matter (don't worry, God always shows us new ones).

Judging from this thread I take it this occurred last week. @Iconoclast, don't let more time pass. A week is too long. Pretty soon it will be two weeks and then a month. You risk this sin taking root. Don't let the sun go down, take care if this issue. Be Killing sin or it will be killing you.

 

[JonC]

I believe you are free to express your dislikes of... Calvinists, and doctrine. A forum is a place to turn it loose.

We all have opinions, but when we go further into stating them when they are unfounded then we risk bearing false witness (we can't just call lies opinions and be good). For example, you may believe that I dislike Calvinists but that would be a unfounded and false opinion. I may believe that you hate minorities, and that may also be false. It is not necessarily a sin until we act on these assumptions and false opinions.

@Iconoclast , would you agree that if you ever said that I hate Calvinists then you would be guilty of the sin you accuse this other person of committing against you? Would you not also be in need of confession and repentance?

Do you see what I am saying?

By your standard of judgment if you have ever stated that I hate or dislike Calvinists or even Calvinism then you are guilty of a sin so grievous as to have an intent as evil as murder. Have you ever claimed that I hate or dislike Calvinists or Calvinism? If so, have you ever come to me in confession and repentance asking for my forgiveness?

If you have claimed that I hate or dislike Calvinists or Calvinism then your standard, not mine, requires that you confess to me the sin and repent for me to forgive you. My standard, if you made those types of statements, is that I have kept no record and it is between you and God.

Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I think you may want to look at yourself. Keeping your standards, you should go to that other board and get with this guy, confess to him you have "kept a record of wrong", ask for his forgiveness and repent. Then address him on good grounds. Remove the log and then help the guy with his splinter.

It does no good talking about it here if you will not act on it there.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I disagree to an extent. I cannot speak to the other guy (I am assuming your assessment is correct). But you seem to be doubling down on keeping a "record of wrongs". That I can address because I have first hand knowledge (per our conversation).

The thing is I am not keeping "a record of wrongs", as much as this is an ongoing and tragically sinful pattern of conduct for this person. There is a fresh supply every other day. I can compile a list if you want to see it it firsthand.

[QUOTE]Disobeying God is a sin as bad as murder (worse, in fact, because it is directed at God and tramples the blood shed for us by denying the power of the gospel to chsnge a heart).[/QUOTE]

I believe I am obeying God as these verses indicate.

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

I had for a time avoided him, but my smartphone and laptop indicated he has followed me on two different message boards.
That false witness is plain for anyone to see who is objective.

My point is you and I still have sins so we cannot sit in judgment against other Christians.[/QUOTE]

I believe we are to judge righteous judgment and stand against lies, slanders, and falsehoods as per scripture. Ignoring this is to enable sin.
From A Baptist Catechism with Commentary from My friend DR.WR Downing;
As with the preceding three Commandments, the analysis is twofold: first, a perpetual negative declaration prohibiting falsehood,
and second, a positive implication, “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself,” i.e., maintain and promote truthfulness and equity to all those with whom we come in contact or have any relation to—within the bounds of Scripture.
The Third Commandment forbids perjury against God, the Ninth forbids perjury against our fellow man. The Fifth Commandment guards the rights of authority, the Sixth guards the rights of person and life, the Seventh guards the rights of marriage and family, and thus of society; the Eighth guards the rights of property. The Ninth Commandment guards the rights of both name and reputation, and so necessarily guards the system of justice which is absolutely essential to society itself (Psa. 11:1–4; Isa. 1:17, 23, 26). The purpose of this Commandment is to secure the truth among men, which is absolutely essential to preserve individual life, reputation, justice and society.

When truth is considered relative, i.e., existential or apart from God– ordained absolutes, the very foundation of society is potentially destroyed, for human society is based upon the presupposition that men are speaking the truth to one another.
The nature of falsehood derives from the devil. He put forth the first lie (Gen. 3:1–6), and is called the father of lies (Jn. 8:44). Satan or the devil is described in Scripture as the destroyer (Rev. 9:11), adversary (1 Pet. 5:8), deceiver (Eph. 6:10; Rev. 20:10) and slanderer or accuser (1 Tim. 3:6–7; 1 Jn. 3:8; Rev. 12:10). His intent is to destroy God’s law–order by opposition, deceit and accusation. Every lie reflects this devilish principle.

Thus, every liar is in league with the devil and is set against the law–order of God. Fallen man turned away from God and thus from any possibility of absolute and objective truth or reality. Fallen, sinful man has purposely “exchanged the truth of God for ‘the lie,’” and thus the whole realm of humanity is based on a universal principle of falsehood with its depraved results (Psa. 58:3; Rom. 1:18–32). This principle of falsehood may be relatively mild in the form of flattery or social politeness, or malignant in the form of perjury and other malicious lies—yet it remains the one pervasive characteristic of fallen mankind. To secure the truth, man must turn to the objective, authoritative Word of God, to Divinely–ordained absolutes, i.e., to a “revelational epistemology,”
113
i.e., a practical theory of knowledge and truth based on Divine revelation. See Question 13. The only approach to truth and knowledge is in and through the Word of God (Jn. 17:17; Rom. 1:18–25). God is not only true, he is the Source of all reality, truth and meaning. Apart from him, there is no truth— only empirical speculation at best and at worst, utter [spiritual and moral] irrationality.
Silence may be sin. One must exercise godly discernment as when to speak and when not to speak. Sometimes, it is sinful not to speak, and at other times, sinful to speak. Under certain circumstances, one must speak out for the truth or commit sin (Ex. 23:1–2; 1 Sam. 19:4–5; Psa. 50:18; Prov. 12:22), and at others, remain silent to protect one’s self or another from those who have no right to know certain information (Prov. 11:9–13). At other times, we must discern how much truth ought to be revealed or concealed (1 Sam. 16:1– 5). We must seek to maintain a clear conscience before God in accordance with his Word (Acts 23:1). God created man in his image and likeness, as a rational, morally– responsible being to exercise godly dominion over creation. To fulfill this mandate, man was created with the faculty of speech to commune with God and communicate with his fellow man. Sin has dreadfully perverted the use of the tongue. The very instrument created to praise God turns to curse him— and to curse one’s fellow man. The tongue reveals the fullness of the heart or inner being and expresses its depraved nature. (Matt. 12:34; Mk. 7:21–23; Rom. 3:13–14; Jas. 2:2–12). Speech is “the exhalation of the soul.” The believer is mandated to exercise dominion over his heart and tongue (Prov. 4:23; Rom. 6:14–18; Gal. 5:23; Eph. 4:22–25, 29–31; Jas. 1:26; 2:2–12). All government necessarily begins with self–government, and self–government necessarily begins with regeneration. A changed heart is necessary for a changed tongue, and a sanctified personality is essential to mortifying the sins of the tongue (Rom. 6:12–13; 8:13; Col. 3:5, 9–10). Do we lie?

Like you point out, you have been making assumptions regarding the other man.

No I have not. I am stating exactly what he is doing. These observations are not assumptions, but cold hard facts.

[QUOTE]Perhaps he has a mental illness and his behavior is beyond his control. That would make the only sin in the matter your sin of disobedience by keeping this record of wrongs against him.

I have not sinned in this. I have inquired into his mental condition and he is quick to tout his own horn and list accomplishments. I just wonder if it is undiagnosed illness taking hold of this aging person.

You say the man holds LDS doctrine

No...for the third time, he is a professed Christian, not a Mormon. His agenda is so twisted he likes the posting of the cultist, and semi Pelagians as long as they oppose the grace of God.

Mormons consider themselves Christian. Perhaps he is really Mormon and lost. There sre so many variables the only thing we can see without a doubt is your disobedience.

You know JonC, this comment is the exact kind of comment used by this man! It makes me wonder if my stalker has stolen your identity and posts using your dog avatar???You assume your assessment is correct?
I am not disobedient, yet you post ....the only thing we can see is my disobedience????
This is false witness itself.

Maybe you should post to the guy on that other forum instead of talking about him here. Confess your sin to him and truly repent.

No..pretty sure it is the man who needs to repent as he keeps doing it. As a stalker he probably sees my posts on both forums.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



The thing is I am not keeping "a record of wrongs", as much as this is an ongoing and tragically sinful pattern of conduct for this person. There is a fresh supply every other day. I can compile a list if you want to see it it firsthand.



I believe I am obeying God as these verses indicate.

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

I had for a time avoided him, but my smartphone and laptop indicated he has followed me on two different message boards.
That false witness is plain for anyone to see who is objective.



I have not sinned in this. I have inquired into his mental condition and he is quick to tout his own horn and list accomplishments. I just wonder if it is undiagnosed illness taking hold of this aging person.



No...for the third time, he is a professed Christian, not a Mormon. His agenda is so twisted he likes the posting of the cultist, and semi Pelagians as long as they oppose the grace of God.



You know JonC, this comment is the exact kind of comment used by this man! It makes me wonder if my stalker has stolen your identity and posts using your dog avatar???You assume your assessment is correct?
I am not disobedient, yet you post ....the only thing we can see is my disobedience????
This is false witness itself.




No..pretty sure it is the man who needs to repent as he keeps doing it. As a stalker he probably sees my posts on both forums.

My point is that we cannot see that the other guy on the other board has ever wronged you. We take your word for it and speak with you about it. But everyone here can see that you continue to consider yourself to have been wronged (this is what is meant by a "record of wrongs", not a literal notebook). Paul teaches that we are commanded to love even our enemies (those who are not reconciled to us, those who do not confess and repent) and that this love includes not keeping track of the wrongs we believe they have committed.

That is what I mean. I (and I believe everyone on this forum) can see that you still consider the guy on that forum to have lied about you and you still believe he needs to confess and repent (you state he has committed a grievous sin against you and oppose you). We do not see the other guy or know his point of view (you could be mistaken). But we see your heart through your replies. That is the only thing that can be verified on this thread because you - not the other guy - is here.

So yes, I assume my assessment is correct (otherwise I would not have said it). But I can back up that assumption with this thread (your comments reflect that you hold this person as having sinned against you and needs to confess and repent). Again, I can only know what you say - the other guy is not here to defend himself. You need to take this to the other forum, address the guy there and settle the issue. If you drag this out for two weeks that is two weeks too long. People allow themselves to steep in sin and sin takes root. Do not allow the sun to go down without reconciling (or at least trying to reconcile) on the other board. This week can turn into months and next thing you know you'll have carried this around for months (which is in itself a sin akin to murder).

If you want my evaluation and we are both members of the forum then please feel free to PM me and I'll engage you on the forum in question. You will probably need to PM me here because I have other boards set up not to receive PM's openly.

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast ,

Let's look at a real example (not that this guy you speak of is not real, but I do not know that he is).

On this board you have disagreed with several members who were not Calvinists (some who were). A very quick word search shows a few people against whom you have made the claim on the public forum that they have an agenda against Calvinism. ( DHK, @Van , Revmitchell , steaver, DrJamesArch, @Skandelon Robert Snow, Winman, @Jordan Kurecki ,@HeirofSalvation , @James and me).

The statement that I have an agenda against Calvinism or Calvinists is a false claim. By your standard, does this not mean that you have sinned against me with an intent as evil as murder?

Since you falsely accused me of an agenda I do not hold on a public forum does that not make you guilty of bearing false witness against me?

Is this not the same that you are complaining of with the guy on the other forum?

Does this not make you guilty of a sin listed in Proverbs 6 (which you clearly stated was not the case, adding another instance of the sin)?

Do you see what I mean now?

You have a disagreement with some Christian who agrees with LDS doctrine but is not a Mormon on another forum where he follows you and posts only to you and lies about you and you seem to think he should confess and repent for sinning against you. But you have posted false things about people on this forum (and that can be evidenced simply by searching "agenda" and "iconoclast", and looking at come archived threads).

Should all of us who disagree with Calvinism but have no anti-Calvinistic agenda demand you confess to us and repent for sinning against us before we forgive you?

I believe most are like me and do not even care enough to demand such confessions and repentance. We do not view ourselves that highly, nor to we view your "sins" against us greater than ours against God. So we forgive.

Do you see where I am going?

I've forgiven you for falsely stating that I have an anti-Calvinsitic agenda. You did not ask and I did not require you to confess to me and repent, I just forgave you. I suspect @Revmitchell and most of the others did the same.

I do not mean this to be rude, but you seem to be a very judgmental person who cannot necessarily stand up to his own standard of judgment.

It does you no good to hold sins against this guy. Members here cannot give you additional feedback because we see your interactions. You need to go on that forum and continually try to reconcile with the guy. I recommend doing this by forging him of any wrongs, real or imagined, first. I bet he probably does not even know you harbor such feelings against him.

 

[Reformed]

On this board you have disagreed with several members who were not Calvinists (some who were). A very quick word search shows a few people against whom you have made the claim on the public forum that they have an agenda against Calvinism. ( DHK, @Van , Revmitchell , steaver, DrJamesArch, @Skandelon Robert Snow, Winman, @Jordan Kurecki ,@HeirofSalvation , @James and me).

Jon, to be fair, some on that list (and some that are not on that list) actually do have an agenda against Calvinism. That is a fact.

 

[JonC]

Jon, to be fair, some on that list (and some that are not on that list) actually do have an agenda against Calvinism. That is a fact.

I suspect so, but we really can't know. We may suspect based on topics argued but to be fair there are many Calvinists that would appear to be anti-everyone else.

People post about what they are passionate about. I can't say if these people are anti another position or overly zealous for their own.

I can say I am not anti-Calvinist or anti-Calvinism without any doubt (although I do believe the theology an error). That is my point. @Iconoclast spoke falsely about me and I think he is being inconsistent with his attitude towards the other guy.

 

[Reformed]

I suspect so, but we really can't know.

In my opinion, we can know. And yes, it goes both ways. I have little interest in trolling regardless of which side it comes from.

As for the issue(s) between you and @Iconoclast , I have been reading the various threads you two have been engaged in and it just seems to be a carousel that never stops. You are on record as stating you do not like him. @Iconoclast probably does not have a picture of you hanging in his living room. Hey, I can rattle off a half-dozen or so Baptist Board members who are not members of my fan club. Given my personality, that does not bother me in the least. However, it is not my desire to have enemies. Sometimes brothers cannot get along. It happens, even after meditation and prayer. What should be done in those situations? Paul wrote in Romans 12:18, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." If both parties in a dispute have done all they can ("so far as it depends on you") and their differences cannot be reconciled, separation may be the right choice. On a message board, not dialoguing with each other may be the wisest course of action. Certainly, this dance you and @Iconoclast have been doing does not speak well of either of you. Am I the only one that sees through all the innuendos and careful speech as to who is being spoken about? This thread has really plumbed the depths of ad absurdum. I guess I am rebuking both of you but I am doing so with Christian charity, not malice. Is enough not enough already?

 

[Iconoclast]

jonC,

For me to respond to your last few posts I need you to restore that deleted post from just short of a year ago.
You know the post. Restore the original post, and post it here.
Let me read it again and see if I misread your post.
Then we can discuss it.
You want me to show my claims, but delete the posts and block access to your posts.