Misunderstanding Unlimited Atonement.

[utilyan]

Where's the head-banging emoticon when you need it? You don't even read your own links. Either Wiki or 'Got Questions' points you in the right direction. We all know atheists who support charities, do favours for neighbours etc. As I said, even Hitler was said to be kind to animals.

Try Romans 7:14-8:4. Outside of Christ we are all lost sinners.

Well here we have to address two problems.

Problem 1 ASSUMPTION that if God can provide something then he doesn't.


About as good a claim as stating without AIR there is no life.

That doesn't mean air is not provided.

Without God there is no feet, does that mean all humans are born without feet?

If God can count to 5 then mankind cannot count to 5.

The Second problem is having a redefined version of "GOOD". Where a EVIL motivated act of "GOOD" is called GOOD rather then evil.


Was Hitler kind for "the glory of God and out of faith in Him"?


When I say someone does good works they fit the bill of "the glory of God and out of faith in Him"

But when you say good works, It doesn't even have to be good at all, it can even be evil.


A evil motivated work is called a good work.

 

[TCassidy]

Wow. That makes absolutely no sense at all. None. Nada. Zip. Zero.

 

[utilyan]

You guys are stuck, because you need to introduce 2nd class Love, 2nd class Good. Fake versions of the words good and love.

God love your enemies, 2nd class love. God loves his chosen, 1st class love.

Good that is not good for God, 2nd class good. Good that is good for God 1st class good.


We already have a word for "GOOD" things not good to God..........EVIL.

So when I say man is capable of good, I'm talking actual good.

 

[utilyan]

Wow. That makes absolutely no sense at all. None. Nada. Zip. Zero.

Even James White will tell you if it weren't for God having us tied down we would all be dead right now from sinful murdering rampage. Maybe I can find you a video?

 

[TCassidy]

Well, let's see. Any first year, bonehead, Greek student knows:

Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē) the love of God for man and of man for God. This type of love was further explained by Thomas Aquinas as "to will the good of another."

Éros (ἔρως érōs) an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself.

Philia (φιλία philía) affectionate regard, friendship, brotherly love.

Storge (στοργή storgē) love of parents and children.

 

[utilyan]

Well, let's see. Any first year, bonehead, Greek student knows:

Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē) the love of God for man and of man for God. This type of love was further explained by Thomas Aquinas as "to will the good of another."

Éros (ἔρως érōs) an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself.

Philia (φιλία philía) affectionate regard, friendship, brotherly love.

Storge (στοργή storgē) love of parents and children.

So are we saying ALL MANKIND is TOTALLY incapable of AGAPE. Right?

 

[Yeshua1]

FYI, Its called TOTAL depravity not Partial depravity.

Meaning people are only evil, incapable of any good.

No, you misunderstand the concept!

It refers to sinners, left to their own decisions, will be ruled over by their sin natures, and as such, will not desire to know and obey the true God, will make up their own gods to worship, and will always be doing even good things from selfish motives...

They worship in the ultimate sense themselves, as they value their desires/wants/needs in the end..

Not everyone ends up a Hilter. but all at one time or another place themselves before all others, serve them selves...

And crate all kinfs of false gods and religion, as they want to take pride in doing "something" to merit and get"saved"

 

[Yeshua1]

You did not admit to misrepresenting John 1:11. Why should anyone believe your assertions actually reflect what is found in scripture?

Where did Jesus say only His flock will hear His voice?
Where did Jesus say only those "granted wisdom from above" could understand His parables?
Where does scripture say "the sheep" refers not to fallen mankind, but only to those God has transferred into Christ?

Pay no attention to those who consistently misrepresent scripture.

There is no actual support anywhere in scripture for Limited Atonement, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all of fallen mankind.

Jesus Himself stated that His parables were NOT for those outside of His Kingdom, but was meant for those who He had saved, and were given ears to hear and know the truth...

Jesus declared that His flock would hear his voice, but that those NOT of his sheep/flock would NOT hear nor heed Him...

The scriptures are clear on this, but you fervant hatred towards Calvinism views cloud your ability to see them!

 

[utilyan]

No, you misunderstand the concept!

It refers to sinners, left to their own decisions, will be ruled over by their sin natures, and as such, will not desire to know and obey the true God, will make up their own gods to worship, and will always be doing even good things from selfish motives...

They worship in the ultimate sense themselves, as they value their desires/wants/needs in the end..

Not everyone ends up a Hilter. but all at one time or another place themselves before all others, serve them selves...

And crate all kinfs of false gods and religion, as they want to take pride in doing "something" to merit and get"saved"

You said:

"It refers to sinners, left to their own decisions, will be ruled over by their sin natures, and as such, will not desire to know and obey the true God, will make up their own gods to worship, and will always be doing even good things from selfish motives..."


I call that completely evil, incapable of Good.


Give me an example of GOOD outside of Jesus Christ or God.

A selfish motive......that is called EVIL.

If I bring you a cake to cheat on your wife the cake is not a GOOD ACT. It is EVIL.

Blurring GOOD and EVIL can accomplish a great case against works......no kidding if every GOOD work is just another EVIL WORK.

That's what your telling me. There is EVIL WORKS and then there is REAL SNEAKY EVIL WORKS.

Next post I will show scripture against this.

 

[utilyan]

The accusation being thrown on man by Total Depravity is the SAME argument the Pharisees who accused Jesus of being Totally Depraved, The Pharisees tried to blur GOOD and EVIL and Jesus corrects them. FOR THE SAME REASON. The same argument. That well all the good Jesus does has only evil for motivation.

And the beauty of it is the answer is all in one chapter.


First Jesus is accused of TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

Matthew 12

22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27“If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29“Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.
30“He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
31“Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32“Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


According to Jesus If a person under Satan does GOOD then Satan is divided against himself and his Kingdom cannot stand.

According to Jesus the perfect argument against being accused of Total depravity is Satan doing Good things is trouble for Satan.

Jesus' comeback wasn't well I am under God, But Satan divided against himself.

He then attacks this notion of trying to BLUR GOOD AND EVIL. Because they wanted to Call good acts EVIL. It didn't matter what GOOD Jesus did, It was from Satan. The same thing I'm trying to drive though to you.

Matthew 12

33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


Either make GOOD WORKS and its fruit GOOD or make EVIL WORKS and it fruit EVIL.

Don't start calling things good works and then whisper well its Satan's work.


Finally Jesus Christ gives the conditions of justification. And this one is biblical without having to edit or scribble in "alone".

For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

 

[glad4mercy]

I think you'll find I have.

Under your system, man holds a veto over God. Unless he complies, nothing happens.

The combination of the two is obviously greater because without man's agreement, there is no salvation- utter failure. Therefore man and God have to work together to get a result.

I think you'll find I can. Under Arminianism, God proposes, but man disposes. God indeed regenerates, but only when man decides to cooperate. You can not be an Arminian and a monergist; it is a contradiction in terms.

It cannot be a monergistic act of God if it depends on man.
But of course in real life, regeneration is a wholly monergistic act of God and depends not at all on man:
Acts 16:14. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was seller of purple from the city of Thyatira who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'
Now you tell me; who opened Lydia's heart?
Was it Lydia herself deciding to listen to Paul?
Was it Paul's preaching that induced Lydia to listen?
Nope! It was Almighty God who opened her heart to listen to Paul and be saved. That is why Luke says earlier, 'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed' (Acts 13:48). Not one more, nor one fewer.

quote- You can not be an Arminian and a monergist; it is a contradiction in terms.

You sure about that?

John Wesley- 5. From hence it manifestly appears, what is the nature of the new birth. It is that great change which God works in the soul when he brings it into life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness. It is the change wrought in the whole soul by the almighty Spirit of God when it is "created anew in Christ Jesus;" when it is "renewed after the image of God, in righteousness and true holiness;" when the love of the world is changed into the love of God; pride into humility; passion into meekness; hatred, envy, malice, into a sincere, tender, disinterested love for all mankind. In a word, it is that change whereby the earthly, sensual, devilish mind is turned into the "mind which was in Christ Jesus." This is the nature of the new birth: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit."

This perfectly describes a monergistic regeneration. Your words are false. Repent of them.

 

[glad4mercy]

That's not what either John 3:16 or John 10:11 says. What other text are you thinking of?

1. That is not what John 3:16 says.
2. What is your definition of kosmos translated 'world' in John 3:16? Is it the 'world' of 1 John 2:15 which we are not to love? Or is it one of the other eight or nine ways the word is used in Scripture?

Yes, I certainly am saying that. If we believe in Monergism we can hardly say anything else. We assume that the Serpent was a Type of Christ.
John 6:44. 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.'
Romans 3:11. 'There is none who seeks after God.'
Romans 11:7. 'Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have received it, and the rest were blinded.'

We must be very clear that those who failed to look to the serpent back then, just like those who fail to look to Christ today are culpable. Their inability is not physical but spiritual (John 9:40-41). 'And this is the condemnation; that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19).

a. I do not rip verses out of context. I go by what the Bible as a whole says.

b. Whatever you think Kosmos means in John 3:16, I guarantee you can't argue soundly that it means the elect only.

c. John Wesley summed up my view of monergism well, even though he probably wouldnt call it that, it's still monergism. read the quote below

John Wesley- John Wesley- 5. From hence it manifestly appears, what is the nature of the new birth. It is that great change which God works in the soul when he brings it into life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness. It is the change wrought in the whole soul by the almighty Spirit of God when it is "created anew in Christ Jesus;" when it is "renewed after the image of God, in righteousness and true holiness;" when the love of the world is changed into the love of God; pride into humility; passion into meekness; hatred, envy, malice, into a sincere, tender, disinterested love for all mankind. In a word, it is that change whereby the earthly, sensual, devilish mind is turned into the "mind which was in Christ Jesus." This is the nature of the new birth: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Regeneration wrought by God alone=Monergism

Hate to throw down your sacred cow false concept, but it needs to be done.

'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.'

It says "draw", not regenerate. The two words are not synonomous.

Romans 3:11. 'There is none who seeks after God.'

True. God seeks us, then we seek Him.

Romans 11:7. 'Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have received it, and the rest were blinded.'

Judicial hardening/blinding.

Romans 9:
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[glad4mercy]

Galatians 3:2- This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

a. Regeneration cannot occur without receiving the Holy Spirit.
b. Holy Spirit received by the hearing of faith.
c. Regeneration by grace THROUGH faith..
___________________________________________________________________________________

1 drawn by God. (monergistic)
2 Repent and believe
3 Regenerated. (monergistic)

 

[utilyan]

quote- You can not be an Arminian and a monergist; it is a contradiction in terms.

You sure about that?

John Wesley- 5. From hence it manifestly appears, what is the nature of the new birth. It is that great change which God works in the soul when he brings it into life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness. It is the change wrought in the whole soul by the almighty Spirit of God when it is "created anew in Christ Jesus;" when it is "renewed after the image of God, in righteousness and true holiness;" when the love of the world is changed into the love of God; pride into humility; passion into meekness; hatred, envy, malice, into a sincere, tender, disinterested love for all mankind. In a word, it is that change whereby the earthly, sensual, devilish mind is turned into the "mind which was in Christ Jesus." This is the nature of the new birth: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit."

This perfectly describes a monergistic regeneration. Your words are false. Repent of them.

He can't repent, cause then that would make him a synergist.

If its all on God don't waste your time with us. Tell God to get to it and fix us.

Since God already regenerated you and every one else is a couple cans short of a six-pack.

Pray for us. I'll just sit back and smoke a cig.

 

[glad4mercy]

He can't repent, cause then that would make him a synergist.

Yes, this is one of the places Calvinism goes off track...

Responding rightly to the Gospel is not a meritorious work, nor does it add an ergon to God's work in regeneration.

God alone regenerates.

John Wesley- 5. From hence it manifestly appears, what is the nature of the new birth. It is that great change which God works in the soul when he brings it into life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness. It is the change wrought in the whole soul by the almighty Spirit of God when it is "created anew in Christ Jesus;" when it is "renewed after the image of God, in righteousness and true holiness;" when the love of the world is changed into the love of God; pride into humility; passion into meekness; hatred, envy, malice, into a sincere, tender, disinterested love for all mankind. In a word, it is that change whereby the earthly, sensual, devilish mind is turned into the "mind which was in Christ Jesus." This is the nature of the new birth: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit."

As long as they keep repeating the erroneous synergism doctrine, I'm going to keep refuting it.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread will be closed sometime after 11am Pacific.

 

[glad4mercy]

This thread will be closed sometime after 11am Pacific.

OK, some things to consider...

a. Unlimited Atonement does not mean "universalism in salvation"

b. Unlimited Atonement does not limit the power of Christ's blood.

c. Unlimited Atonement does not merely make man savable.

d. Unlimited Atonement does not mean that God failed to ACCOMPLISH all that He sent out to accomplish

The reason why Christ died for everyone and only some are saved has nothing to do with limiting God's power or sucess. I believe that God in some cases, while fully Sovereign, limits Himself. IN OTHER WORDS, HE does not always do that which is in His Power to do. He can freely choose to do something or He can freely choose not to do it. He can freely choose to save all, save none, save some unconditionally, or save some conditionally.

Christ was God and He limited Himself during the incarnation. Christ is the perfect image of the invisible God. If Christ can limit His own actions so can the Father.

With that in mind, God has decreed to only save those who are of FAITH. It is a self limitation in salvation. HE sent His Son to die for all, but His decree is that ONLY those who believe will be saved.

A parallel example is the matter of unanswered prayer. The Bible teaches that if we do not believe when we pray, we cannot expect to receive anything from God. So if God chooses not to answer a doubtful unbelieving prayer, it IS NOT THAT GOD WAS HINDERED DUE TUR UNBELIEF, as if our unbelief limits God. God limits Himself in not honoring unbelief.

So since it is the prayer of faith that is answered, and considering the definition given to "synergism" that is given by Calvinists, does that mean that if I pray for healing for my loved one, and God heals him or her, did my prayer heal that person or did God's power heal that person.

God's power alone healed that person. Monergism

Just like God's power alone regenerates, even though faith is required it is not an ERGON.

 

[glad4mercy]

Addendum to last post. My faith did not produce regenerative power any more than the the act of the woman with a flow of blood touching the hem of Jesus' garment produced healing power. In both cases it is the power of God alone received by faith

 

[utilyan]

Yes, this is one of the places Calvinism goes off track...

Responding rightly to the Gospel is not a meritorious work, nor does it add an ergon to God's work in regeneration.

God alone regenerates.

John Wesley- 5. From hence it manifestly appears, what is the nature of the new birth. It is that great change which God works in the soul when he brings it into life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness. It is the change wrought in the whole soul by the almighty Spirit of God when it is "created anew in Christ Jesus;" when it is "renewed after the image of God, in righteousness and true holiness;" when the love of the world is changed into the love of God; pride into humility; passion into meekness; hatred, envy, malice, into a sincere, tender, disinterested love for all mankind. In a word, it is that change whereby the earthly, sensual, devilish mind is turned into the "mind which was in Christ Jesus." This is the nature of the new birth: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit."

As long as they keep repeating the erroneous synergism doctrine, I'm going to keep refuting it.

Responding to the gospel is not meritorious? So refusing the gospel is not a sin correct?

 

[glad4mercy]

Responding to the gospel is not meritorious? So refusing the gospel is not a sin correct?

a. If we could merit our salvation, Christ would not have needed to die.

b. Refusing the Gospel is a sin.