Monergism vs Synergism

[Revmitchell]

Do you honestly believe regeneration is NOT God's means of taking the Finished work of Christ and applying it to the sinner?

I didn't say that and nothing I have said should lead anyone to believe I said that. If something must occur after the cross regardless of who does it then it must be the cross+whatever that is. In your case it is the cross+regeneration. It may be the application of what happened on the cross but it still is separate and apart from happening on the cross.

Trying to be right when you know you are wrong has forced you into an untenable heresy. If you keep going in this direction it will not be long before you believe nothing at all.

You have to stop telling people what they are thinking. You just don't know that. I do not know I am wrong in fact I am right about your "untenable" standard in which you are trying to hold to someone else but refuse to hold yourself to it. Trying to tell someone that because they choose (application of the cross) is any different than God regenerates in that it occurs as a separate instance from the cross is just wrong and inconsistent.

 

[thatbrian]

But, the fact remains that God does command that everyone must repent, which can only mean that they can!

That's your assumption. John 6:44 begs to differ.

God's right to our obedience remains the same as it did for Adam; however, we are incapable of it.

 

[TCassidy]

I didn't say that and nothing I have said should lead anyone to believe I said that.

And that is your modus operandi. You say something then refuse to own it.

If something must occur after the cross regardless of who does it then it must be the cross+whatever that is. In your case it is the cross+regeneration.

What does God's regenerating Grace add to the finished work of Christ on the cross?

You are the one who claims regeneration is the result of something you do.

 

[Revmitchell]

And that is your modus operandi. You say something then refuse to own it.

.

Please quote me verbatim or apologize for your false accusation.

 

[TCassidy]

Please quote me verbatim or apologize for your false accusation.

I didn't say that and nothing I have said should lead anyone to believe I said that.

 

[Revmitchell]

What in the world is wrong with you? That's not what I was talking about. You accused me of saying regeneration is not how Christ applies the work of the cross. Why does that have to be explained?

I never said regeneration is not how Christ applies the work of the cross, so your accusation is false and intentionally so.

I did catch you in a severe inconsistency since you yourself believe the cross+regeneration is necessary for salvation. In other words to you the cross is not enough.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

That's your assumption. John 6:44 begs to differ.

God's right to our obedience remains the same as it did for Adam; however, we are incapable of it.

So, you are saying that God commands that we do something, that He know we are not capable of? Where do you guys get your "theology" from?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Two things:

1. All men are commanded to repent.

2. All men cannot repent unless they are made able to repent.

I'm going back to a previous post that you did really not respond to. Eph. 2:1 makes it perfectly clear that sinners are spiritually dead. The word νεκρος in Ephesians 2:1 means dead as in a corpse. Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown define νεκρος in Eph. 2:1 this way:

A living corpse: without the gracious presence of God’s Spirit in the soul, and so unable to think, will, or do aught that is holy.

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 344). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Matthew Henry writes:

Unregenerate souls are dead in trespasses and sins. All those who are in their sins, are dead in sins; yea, in trespasses and sins, which may signify all sorts of sins, habitual and actual, sins of heart and of life. Sin is the death of the soul. Wherever that prevails there is a privation of all spiritual life. Sinners are dead in state, being destitute of the principles, and powers of spiritual life; and cut off from God, the fountain of life: and they are dead in law, as a condemned malefactor is said to be a dead man.

Henry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 2309). Peabody: Hendrickson.

Dwell on that for a moment. Don't try to pawn it off on other passages to try and lessen its impact. Eph. 2:1 deserves to be understood in its own right. There is a reason why the Apostle Paul used νεκρος. There are plenty of other Greek words he could have used to denote the effect of sin, but he chose a word that ruled out any action on the part of the subject. In the movie, the Green Mile the guards called those prisoners on death row "dead men walking". That is exactly the extrapolation of Eph. 2:1. From birth, sinners are dead men walking - spiritually dead. The other passages I cited, Rom. 8:5-7 and 1 Cor. 2:14, describe the consequences of spiritual death: inability. If the sinner remains spiritually dead he is unable to respond to God's command to repent. I'm not making this up. This is the where the text takes us.

So, what do we do with God's command for sinners repent and believe? The first thing we need to understand is that God is not obligated to His creation beyond what He has promised (and in that case, He is obligated to His own word, not to His creation). The scripture says that the preaching of the Gospel to those who are perishing is an aroma of death:

2 Cor. 2:14-17 14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place. 15 For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; 16 to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things? 17 For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

Judicially those who reject the gospel will be condemned because of their unbelief. It doesn't matter whether they had the ability to repent and believe or not. God is not obligated to save anyone and He is not obligated to make sure everyone hears the gospel.

Psalm 19:9b The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether.

If we are tempted to call God mean and capricious, then we need to be reminded of the words of the Apostle:

Romans 9:14- 23 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

So we see, plainly written, that God purposed vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand. God's purpose does not diminish the well-meant offer of the gospel. All those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. However, all will not because all cannot. God has not endued us with perfect knowledge. We do not know who is elect and who is not. We preach the gospel in power and in truth, knowing that God has chosen the gospel as the means of salvation and that all who believe it will be saved.

I fear that because of a "theological block", there are some who cannot grasp what the Bible actually teaches. The sinner is indeed spiritually "dead", but this is in their relation to God, this has been broken because of sin. It is not speaking of being "dead" so that they are incapable of responding to the "convicting" power of the Holy Spirit, Who is said to "convict the WORLD of sin" (John 16:8). You have thus far ignored a response to what I showed from Jesus' own words in John 5:25, which is very clear to those who want to see, that the lost spiritual "dead" and and do hear the Gospel for their salvation. Please deal with this.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Tom, you're probably correct. Of course, our real audience is made up of those who seldom respond. They read but remain quiet. There's always hope.

That is because it is easier for the blind to follow the blind!

 

[thatbrian]

So, you are saying that God commands that we do something, that He know we are not capable of? Where do you guys get your "theology" from?

Have you obeyed God's law? Do you know anyone who has obeyed God's law? Does God command obedience to His law? Why did Christ die, if a man is capable of obedience to God's law? Again, where is this person who obeys God's law? If you think that you have obeyed His law (only perfection will do) why are you a Christian?

God commands obedience to His perfect law, and yes, He knows that no man is capable of that. Unless you are not a sinner, you believe the same.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Have you obeyed God's law? Do you know anyone who has obeyed God's law? Does God command obedience to His law? Why did Christ die, if a man is capable of obedience to God's law? Again, where is this person who obeys God's law? If you think that you have obeyed His law (only perfection will do) why are you a Christian?

God commands obedience to His perfect law, and yes, He knows that no man is capable of that. Unless you are not a sinner, you believe the same.

Your reply completely misses what the text in Acts actually says! God rightly commands that every human being, who are all lost in their sins, repent of these sins and fully trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. God commands this, because it is a requirement for ALL sinners to get their sins forgiven. the fact that God "commands all men everywhere" to do this, shows beyond any doubt, that the entire human race CAN indeed repent, which is what God the Holy Spirit ensures by His conviction of sin (John 16). Yes, not everyone will repent, because not everyone is interested in what God has said. But this does not mean that they CANNOT, but that they WILL NOT! As Jesus says in John chapter 5, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (ver.39-40). Not as some would have us believe, "you cannot will to come", as though their "free will" has been restrained by God, but, "you are not willing", which clearly shows that they COULD will to, but CHOOSE not to!

 

[thatbrian]

Your reply completely misses what the text in Acts actually says! God rightly commands that every human being, who are all lost in their sins, repent of these sins and fully trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. God commands this, because it is a requirement for ALL sinners to get their sins forgiven. the fact that God "commands all men everywhere" to do this, shows beyond any doubt, that the entire human race CAN indeed repent, which is what God the Holy Spirit ensures by His conviction of sin (John 16). Yes, not everyone will repent, because not everyone is interested in what God has said. But this does not mean that they CANNOT, but that they WILL NOT! As Jesus says in John chapter 5, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" (ver.39-40). Not as some would have us believe, "you cannot will to come", as though their "free will" has been restrained by God, but, "you are not willing", which clearly shows that they COULD will to, but CHOOSE not to!

Did God author the 10 Commandments? How about the Sermon on the Mount? Are they commands or suggestions? Have you, or anyone you know, obeyed these laws?

Again, Jesus Himself disputes your statement. He said this: No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day. (John 6:44)

Noone is willing to come to Christ. The word "draw" in John 6:44, mean to drag. It's the word used when describing getting water from a well. One takes the water from the well.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Did God author the 10 Commandments? How about the Sermon on the Mount? Are they commands or suggestions? Have you, or anyone you know, obeyed these laws?

Again, Jesus Himself disputes your statement. He said this: No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day. (John 6:44)

Noone is willing to come to Christ. The word "draw" in John 6:44, mean to drag. It's the word used when describing getting water from a well. One takes the water from the well.

Revelation 22:17

"And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely"

Acts 2:21

"Everyone, whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved" (so the force of the Greek text)

An open invitation to ALL by God Almighty! AMEN!

By the way, why do the Calvinists and Reformed have this opposition to ALL sinners being saved? God Himself says in Ezekiel that He does not take any pleasure (desire) that the wicked should perish, and that they repent and be saved, rather than lost in hell. This is the theme of the whole Bible. And yet there are some who actually oppose God on this very issue. I believe that the Prophet Jonah was the first "Calvinist", as he also strongly opposed what God wanted to do, and did in saving 1000's of lost souls, who are not even part of the Jewish "elect"!

 

[thatbrian]

Revelation 22:17

"And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely"

Acts 2:21

"Everyone, whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved" (so the force of the Greek text)

An open invitation to ALL by God Almighty! AMEN!

By the way, why do the Calvinists and Reformed have this opposition to ALL sinners being saved? God Himself says in Ezekiel that He does not take any pleasure (desire) that the wicked should perish, and that they repent and be saved, rather than lost in hell. This is the theme of the whole Bible. And yet there are some who actually oppose God on this very issue. I believe that the Prophet Jonah was the first "Calvinist", as he also strongly opposed what God wanted to do, and did in saving 1000's of lost souls, who are not even part of the Jewish "elect"!

You didn't answer my questions. Why is that?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You didn't answer my questions. Why is that?

Every person that ever gets saved, must first be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that they are lost sinners and hell-bound, and that they need to get their souls saved, and this salvation is only to be found in the Lord Jesus Christ. No person can ever get converted on their own. No one is capable of being saved without the Holy Spirit first "drawing" them to the Lord Jesus Christ. However, it is plain in Scripture that the Gospel Message has the "power of God that leads to salvation" (Romans 1:16), and they that "repent" of their sins will indeed be saved (Luke 13:1-5)

I have a book by a Loraine Boettner, Studies in Theology, where he also has been confused by what he says. He says in one place, "The Gospel is, nevertheless, to be offered to all men, with the assurance that it is exactly adapted to the needs of all men, and that God has decreed that all who place their faith in Christ shall be saved by Him. No man is lost because of any deficiency in the objective atonement, or because God has placed any barrier in His way, but only because of subjective difficulties, specifically, because because of his own evil disposition and his freely exercised wicked will will prevent his believing and accepting that atonement" (pages 323-324). Now, has God decreed the "ALL" who place their faith in Jesus, as "elect", or "all without exception"? If the former, then Dr Boettner's argument is faulty. Then he goes on to say, that "no man is lost", because of God "placing any barrier in his way", which again can only refer to the "non-elect", but, this reasoning is faulty, as the "barrier" that God has placed, according to Calvinism, is LIMITED ATONEMENT. IF, as this teaches, that Jesus Christ ONLY died for SOME, then this DOES become a "barrier" to those for whom He did not die. Dr Boettner, then accuses the person who does not accept Jesus, of having a "evil disposition" and "freely exercised wicked will", which again contradicts "Calvinism", which teaches that man does NOT have a "free will", to accept or reject the Gospel of Salvation, as their "fate" has already been predetermined.

 

[thatbrian]

Every person that ever gets saved, must first be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that they are lost sinners and hell-bound, and that they need to get their souls saved, and this salvation is only to be found in the Lord Jesus Christ. No person can ever get converted on their own. No one is capable of being saved without the Holy Spirit first "drawing" them to the Lord Jesus Christ. However, it is plain in Scripture that the Gospel Message has the "power of God that leads to salvation" (Romans 1:16), and they that "repent" of their sins will indeed be saved (Luke 13:1-5)

I have a book by a Loraine Boettner, Studies in Theology, where he also has been confused by what he says. He says in one place, "The Gospel is, nevertheless, to be offered to all men, with the assurance that it is exactly adapted to the needs of all men, and that God has decreed that all who place their faith in Christ shall be saved by Him. No man is lost because of any deficiency in the objective atonement, or because God has placed any barrier in His way, but only because of subjective difficulties, specifically, because because of his own evil disposition and his freely exercised wicked will will prevent his believing and accepting that atonement" (pages 323-324). Now, has God decreed the "ALL" who place their faith in Jesus, as "elect", or "all without exception"? If the former, then Dr Boettner's argument is faulty. Then he goes on to say, that "no man is lost", because of God "placing any barrier in his way", which again can only refer to the "non-elect", but, this reasoning is faulty, as the "barrier" that God has placed, according to Calvinism, is LIMITED ATONEMENT. IF, as this teaches, that Jesus Christ ONLY died for SOME, then this DOES become a "barrier" to those for whom He did not die. Dr Boettner, then accuses the person who does not accept Jesus, of having a "evil disposition" and "freely exercised wicked will", which again contradicts "Calvinism", which teaches that man does NOT have a "free will", to accept or reject the Gospel of Salvation, as their "fate" has already been predetermined.

It's difficult to have a fruitful conversation if you jump around. Your initial complaint was regarding God commanding what He knows we cannot accomplish. Have you conceded that point, or would you like to answer my last post addressing that issue?

If you now agree that God does command what He knows can't be achieved, then we can move forward to your next objection to God's sovereignty.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

It's difficult to have a fruitful conversation if you jump around. Your initial complaint was regarding God commanding what He knows we cannot accomplish. Have you conceded that point, or would you like to answer my last post addressing that issue?

If you now agree that God does command what He knows can't be achieved, then we can move forward to your next objection to God's sovereignty.

can you firstly explain, how can God command that we do something, knowing full well that it is something that we cannot do? It is a completely different matter, if God commanded that we did something, but Himself did not know whether it were possible or not, that we do it? God commands it, because this is the only way a sinner can get saved, and avoid going eternally to hell. God commands it, because He has made sure that the entire human race is indeed capable of repenting and believing, because this is how He has made human beings. Your reasoning makes God out to be someone who really does not know what He is doing, by making demands of fallen sinners, whom He knows cannot comply! This surely makes God unjust!

 

[thatbrian]

can you firstly explain, how can God command that we do something, knowing full well that it is something that we cannot do?

I've been doing just that. Read back. God gave the 10 commandments, did He not? Christ summed up the commands of God in the Great Comand:
Matthew 22:37–40

[37] And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [40] On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (ESV)

Now, if you, or anyone you know, has obeyed these commands, then you have an argument. If not, then we know that God commands what men are incapable of.

What needs to be understood here is the reason God gave the law in the first place. The apostle Paul gives us the reason. He says: "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made. . ."

God is not unjust in His commands. We are sinful. It's not Him. It's us. In other words, God will not lower the bar because we are sinners. He will not permit murder because men are murderers. He will not say it's Okay to commit adultery because men are adulterers. His law is perfect. We are not perfect, and that is the point. The law reveals our imperfection. It demonstrates our weakness and need for Christ.

Now, do you agree that God commands what He knows men are incapable of, or not?

 

[thatbrian]

"the commandments are not given inappropriately or pointlessly; but in order that through them the proud, blind man may learn the plague of his impotence, should he try to do as he is commanded." Martin Luther - The Bondage of the Will pg. 160

"...'if thou art willing' is a verb in the subjunctive mood, which asserts nothing...a conditional statement asserts nothing indicatively." "if thou art willing", "if thou hear", "if thou do" declare, not man's ability, but his duty. pg 157

 

[Reformed]

I fear that because of a "theological block", there are some who cannot grasp what the Bible actually teaches.

You called TCassidy arrogant and then you type this sentence. This statement of your is classic arrogance. You have 37 total posts (at last count) and you elevate yourself as an authority? By your prose and the substance of your theological argument you prove that you have a lot to learn.

The sinner is indeed spiritually "dead", but this is in their relation to God, this has been broken because of sin.

Of course, it has been broken because of sin. It's not because of his righteousness.

It is not speaking of being "dead" so that they are incapable of responding to the "convicting" power of the Holy Spirit, Who is said to "convict the WORLD of sin" (John 16:8).

Really? I made my exegetical case. Are you capable of doing that? The convicting power of the Holy Spirit is John 16 has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of man. Matthew Henry writes:

The Spirit, by the word and conscience, is a reprover; ministers are reprovers by office, and by them the Spirit reproves.

Henry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 2023). Peabody: Hendrickson.

One role of the Holy Spirit was to work through the Apostles in bringing a legal indictment against sin and those who are in their sins (note that Jesus was talking to the Apostles about what was to follow after His ascension). The Apostles would possess the legal right to act as Christ's representatives on earth and the Holy Spirit would be their bona fide.

You have thus far ignored a response to what I showed from Jesus' own words in John 5:25, which is very clear to those who want to see, that the lost spiritual "dead" and and do hear the Gospel for their salvation. Please deal with this.

Ignored it? Please. I was waiting for your response to the exegesis I provided. How are the spiritually dead in John 5:25 able to know the convicting work of the Holy Spirit while they are spiritually dead? Because it is the Holy Spirit doing the convicting. I point you back to my previous posts, which I know you have exhaustively dissected. I am not going to type of them again because I'm convinced I'm talking to a brick.

Tom, have fun with this guy.