Monergists & Synergists: Divide or Unify?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There is no such thing as a monergist, IMO. Just confused synergists

Fact: faith is required of man to be saved. Regardless of where he gets this faith, it is till a requirement.

Then define the doctrine of Sola Gratia...or do you disregard it?

 

[steaver]

Steaver

In post 51 progress has taken place. You agree that it is The teaching ministry of the Spirit of God the enables Christians to believe Divine truth. This is an important development.

In awhile I will answer in full and as we now seemingly are in agreement that Divine enablement is essential to come to truth......I will now be able to address your concerns and provide needed clarification.

The nature of our dispute then is not if The Spirit teaches truth......but what is the content of what we call TRUTH.

If you thought you did not agree with me before....stay tuned for my next post......

There will be an important development when you address the FACT that you tied belief in TULIP with John 10, which is a passage distinguishing the lost from the saved. And there will be an important development if another Calvinist actually rebukes you for it, I doubt it, because I believe all Calvinist believe as you do, most just won't say it.

 

[Reformed]

This thread is not doing much to promote the unity of Monergists and Synergists; at least on an online message board. I am still of the opinion that we would not act this way in life outside of this board. And no - I do not believe any of us would choose to belong to a church that teaches differently unless providence dictates.

 

[steaver]

This thread is not doing much to promote the unity of Monergists and Synergists; at least on an online message board. I am still of the opinion that we would not act this way in life outside of this board. And no - I do not believe any of us would choose to belong to a church that teaches differently unless providence dictates.

This is what I like about the C&MA, they focus on the Great Commission and the Gospel. Not on these non-essential squabbles. Don't misunderstand, I like these theological debates, keeps one engaged in the study of Scripture, but in regards to statements of faith and membership requirements, it should be all about Jesus Christ and Christian living sola Scripture. Everything else written outside of Scripture is to be viewed as commentary expressed for consideration, not as thus sayeth the Lord.

 

[Reformed]

This is what I like about the C&MA, they focus on the Great Commission and the Gospel. Not on these non-essential squabbles. Don't misunderstand, I like these theological debates, keeps one engaged in the study of Scripture, but in regards to statements of faith and membership requirements, it should be all about Jesus Christ and Christian living sola Scripture. Everything else written outside of Scripture is to be viewed as commentary expressed for consideration, not as thus sayeth the Lord.

steaver, what is non-essential for one person may be essential for another. I agree that the main thing should be Christ and the authority of the Word of God, but how we interpret the Word of God determines what we believe about certain things.

 

[steaver]

steaver, what is non-essential for one person may be essential for another. I agree that the main thing should be Christ and the authority of the Word of God, but how we interpret the Word of God determines what we believe about certain things.

And as I said many times, say TULIP is correct, so what? From the preachers I have observed, both Calvinist and Non, they both preach to the lost the same way. So why let TULIP divide us???

 

[Reformed]

And as I said many times, say TULIP is correct, so what? From the preachers I have observed, both Calvinist and Non, they both preach to the lost the same way. So why let TULIP divide us???

steaver, because both systems, Monergism and Synergism, have real and measurable implications on what we do, not just what we say.

I do not hate or even dislike my Synergist brethren (and I have no problem calling them "brethren). I strongly disagree with them, but I have have no animus towards them. It is just that the theology I hold to permeates everything I believe and do. It is not that I seek, or even wish, for division. The division comes naturally because of deeply held convictions.

 

[steaver]

steaver, because both systems, Monergism and Synergism, have real and measurable implications on what we do, not just what we say.

I do not hate or even dislike my Synergist brethren (and I have no problem calling them "brethren). I strongly disagree with them, but I have have no animus towards them. It is just that the theology I hold to permeates everything I believe and do. It is not that I seek, or even wish, for division. The division comes naturally because of deeply held convictions.

Well tell me, what do you do differently now that you believe in TULIP?

 

[Reformed]

Well tell me, what do you do differently now that you believe in TULIP?

To answer that I have to go beyond TULIP. TULIP is often viewed in the context of God's sovereignty vs. Man's free will in salvation. When I left Synergism I had an entire theological paradigm shift. I went from being a dispensationalist to a covenant theologian. My view of evangelism drastically changed. I no longer pushed for that raised hand or a walking down the aisle. I became more concerned with the work of Holy Spirit in regenerating sinners. Instead of seeking decisions I sought disciples, in fulfillment of the Great Commission. My view of the Lord's Day changed. My view of baptism and Lord's Supper changed. In short - everything changed.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This thread is not doing much to promote the unity of Monergists and Synergists; at least on an online message board. I am still of the opinion that we would not act this way in life outside of this board. And no - I do not believe any of us would choose to belong to a church that teaches differently unless providence dictates.

I'm sorry friend but I believe that there is a clear point of demarcation. It is all of God or it is not good news at all. If man is free to resist, God is not free to act, for He is bound by mans freedom. If God is to be free to act, man must be bound by the will of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To answer that I have to go beyond TULIP. TULIP is often viewed in the context of God's sovereignty vs. Man's free will in salvation. When I left Synergism I had an entire theological paradigm shift. I went from being a dispensationalist to a covenant theologian. My view of evangelism drastically changed. I no longer pushed for that raised hand or a walking down the aisle. I became more concerned with the work of Holy Spirit in regenerating sinners. Instead of seeking decisions I sought disciples, in fulfillment of the Great Commission. My view of the Lord's Day changed. My view of baptism and Lord's Supper changed. In short - everything changed.

In short, you could never sit under a synergistic pastor as your spiritual leader. Now you are in my tell of thinking. I had a similar epiphany "if you will " ....I not only left the past theological life behind, I had a voratious appetite for DoG doctrine so I started reading and studying on my own because there really are no genuine DoG theology churches in my community at large.

 

[steaver]

To answer that I have to go beyond TULIP. TULIP is often viewed in the context of God's sovereignty vs. Man's free will in salvation. When I left Synergism I had an entire theological paradigm shift. I went from being a dispensationalist to a covenant theologian. My view of evangelism drastically changed. I no longer pushed for that raised hand or a walking down the aisle. I became more concerned with the work of Holy Spirit in regenerating sinners. Instead of seeking decisions I sought disciples, in fulfillment of the Great Commission. My view of the Lord's Day changed. My view of baptism and Lord's Supper changed. In short - everything changed.

So I am assuming you are a preacher/pastor? So how do you invite the lost to follow Jesus? You don't ask them to come to an alter for prayer? How do you know who is being saved?

I was also wondering about your statement of faith - "Because I have placed my faith in Christ alone for my salvation." Isn't this something a Synergist would say? It doesn't sound Calvinistic.

 

[Yeshua1]

1. Is it appropriate for Christians to divide over this issue?
2. Does the debate effect one's view of the Gospel and salvation?
3. If so, is that a minor or major issue?
4. If someone belongs to a church that holds to a different view, should that person advocate for their view and cause dissension in the church?
5. If the issue does come up in real life, should we be charitable in our behavior even if we disagree?

1. No, as the Holy Spirit Humself desires us to all keep the unity that Jesus purchased for us to have towards each other being now fellow members of the Body, so we can have heated discussions and disagreements, but as long as we reason from ther scriptures ALONE, and no off our group distinctive beliefs and other sources...
2. yes, but that would be mainly in the issues regarding free will and how much the fall affected all of us..
3. major, IF one decides to deny either the effects of the Fall, or allowing us to till have free will same as adam omce held... Or if we think no meed to witness or evagelise, as God will save his own, or that somehow they are already right with him...
4.No, rather that person should either agree with his pastor snad elders, or else discuss it freely, but without urge to somehow convert all on it..
5.Yes

 

[Reformed]

So I am assuming you are a preacher/pastor? So how do you invite the lost to follow Jesus? You don't ask them to come to an alter for prayer? How do you know who is being saved?

I was also wondering about your statement of faith - "Because I have placed my faith in Christ alone for my salvation." Isn't this something a Synergist would say? It doesn't sound Calvinistic.

You assume correctly.

How do I invite the lost to follow Jesus? I preach the same gospel that Spurgeon preached (although I am not a Spurgeon). I declare to sinners that they are facing the impending wrath of God and that God calls on them to repent of their sins, and turn to Christ by faith alone. We invite people to talk with our elders after the worship service, and our church members go out of their way to engage with visitors after worship is concluded. The command is to believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). The command is not raise a hand or walk down the aisle.

Yes. A Synergist would make that statement. This is why I often say that Monergism is misunderstood. Sinners must place their faith in Christ. It makes no difference if they are elect. God ordains the means of salvation; the means being the preaching of the Gospel. I believe the Holy Spirit first regenerates the sinner and then the sinner responds in faith. Synergists disagree with regeneration preceding faith. That is one of the things that divides the two camps.

 

[Reformed]

In short, you could never sit under a synergistic pastor as your spiritual leader.

Not if I had a choice. If I was providentially hindered from going to a like-minded church, I would seek an alternative. Not all Synergist pastors are rabid-Synergists. I used to attend a Baptist church in New Jersey back in the early 80's. The pastor at that time (who is a very dear friend of mine) was not a Monergist, and still is not. But in his preaching and teaching, Synergism vs. Monergism was never mentioned. When he called on sinners to repent and believe, he did a very good job of presenting the Gospel. If I was forced to attend a church like that, I would. Because of my doctrinal distinctives I may not be able to join that church, but I would faithfully attend.

 

[Iconoclast]

There will be an important development when you address the FACT that you tied belief in TULIP with John 10, which is a passage distinguishing the lost from the saved. And there will be an important development if another Calvinist actually rebukes you for it, I doubt it, because I believe all Calvinist believe as you do, most just won't say it.

Steaver,

All true believers are Calvinists even if they do not realize it yet. They realize it when they pray and asks God to save a person.

You seem to not be comprehending.

I do comprehend what is being discussed

When you originally made the comment that one can only believe in Calvinism by Divine Enablement, and gave Matt 13 as support, which is a passage distinguishing between the lost and the saved,

The first group of quotes showed that God reveals His truth to His sheep.

Calvinism is the teaching of God's truth. God saves His sheep, God instructs His sheep.

Disobedience on the part of the sheep, a proud spirit, self will can hinder the reception of the truth in the same way a husband who does not dwell with his wife according to knowledge has his prayers hindered

Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered

therefore another declaration that unless one believes in Calvinism they are not saved,

If someone does not believe in the truth they will not be saved...If God is the one who reveals truth to His sheep, He will give them what they need.
The scripture speaks of many who perish because they do not receive a love of the truth.

I thought you were outside the camp of Calvinist. However, after questioning the board of Calvinist, it became apparent that they all believed just as you declared concerning Calvinism in association with the lost and the saved.

Not everyone holds or believes as I do...some are firmer, some are more soft. Others might agree in general but not be comfortable defending what I say. I will defend what i say.

Now, as far as the Holy Spirit illuminating Jesus' sheep to God's Word, absolutely, no non-Cal would disagree.

So then this dispute is about what is the content of the TRUTH...not about whether or not a person must be illuminated by the Spirit.

What we disagree with is Calvinist claims to the Holy Spirit teaching TULIP to His sheep.

I understand it as the truth of God so of course He will teach it.

TULIP is nothing more than a manmade composition trying to explain God's Word. The only thing the Holy Spirit illuminates is God's Word, not TULIP commentary

I think you say this because you do not have a firm grasp on it yet. Depending on how things are asked and explained makes a difference.

I could ask you questions on the L in a way that you would respond to the questions with a yes answer on most all of them....so in effect you would agree to the truth without actually realizing it.

Was the work of Jesus on the cross perfect?

Does the blood of Jesus save everyone who is covered by it?

Is everyone who is saved , saved by the blood of Jesus?

Can anyone be saved by any other way?

If they believe the bible they must believe in the verses on election and predestination. They might have been given the wrong information about it, but in time they will see it.

The teaching of Calvinism= the truth of God. Jesus and the Apostles taught these things. Theologians have seen these truths in the word of God.

 

[steaver]

You assume correctly.

How do I invite the lost to follow Jesus? I preach the same gospel that Spurgeon preached (although I am not a Spurgeon). I declare to sinners that they are facing the impending wrath of God and that God calls on them to repent of their sins, and turn to Christ by faith alone. We invite people to talk with our elders after the worship service, and our church members go out of their way to engage with visitors after worship is concluded. The command is to believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). The command is not raise a hand or walk down the aisle.

Well, then there is some kind of invitation going on. We don't like the raise your hand or walk an isle = salvation approach either. We invite folks to step out as a confession that they believe and invite them to the front so the elders can pray with them and help guide them to discipleship. So, really nothing different between us there.

Yes. A Synergist would make that statement. This is why I often say that Monergism is misunderstood. Sinners must place their faith in Christ. It makes no difference if they are elect. God ordains the means of salvation; the means being the preaching of the Gospel. I believe the Holy Spirit first regenerates the sinner and then the sinner responds in faith. Synergists disagree with regeneration preceding faith. That is one of the things that divides the two camps

This sounds a bit different than what I usually hear from Calvinist. Usually they insist there is no placing of faith but that the faith is given by God, so it just happens because God made it happen.

 

[steaver]

Disobedience on the part of the sheep, a proud spirit, self will can hinder the reception of the truth in the same way a husband who does not dwell with his wife according to knowledge has his prayers hindered

Self will can hinder the Holy Spirit? Interesting. Kinda sounds like the Spirit can be resisted.

 

[Reformed]

This sounds a bit different than what I usually hear from Calvinist. Usually they insist there is no placing of faith but that the faith is given by God, so it just happens because God made it happen.

Well, faith is a gift from God. Sinners do not possess saving faith in and of themselves. The very faith they need to exercise in order to believe is given by God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Grace, faith, and salvation are all part of the gift of God. That said, yes, the sinner must exercise faith; he must believe. No Monergist denies that. If they do they are wrong.

 

[steaver]

Well, faith is a gift from God. Sinners do not possess saving faith in and of themselves. The very faith they need to exercise in order to believe is given by God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Grace, faith, and salvation are all part of the gift of God. That said, yes, the sinner must exercise faith; he must believe. No Monergist denies that. If they do they are wrong.

So you believe there are two separate types of faiths going on here. One, the faith that God gives to believe on Jesus Christ (saving faith) and two, the faith which comes from an individuals own self will.