Monergists & Synergists: Divide or Unify?

[Iconoclast]

Here is where It speaks to what the op is getting at;

Quote:
Originally Posted by PreachTony View Post
I understand your point. I can only speak for myself, but when I pray for someone to be saved, I do ask that God move in the person's life; to allow them to hear the gospel preached; and to convict them in the heart so that they repent and are saved. See, I believe God has to move on the person first, but unlike Calvinists, I believe God still allows us the choice of accepting or rejecting Him.

I feel like you do, but only about Calvinists/Predestinationists instead of Synergists.

Well, then, you seem your prayers seem to be consistent with you theology. I also appreciate your honesty. Thank you.

This dialogue is where the value is.PT when he prays...does ask God to do something internally in theose he prays for. I suspect this is the case with all believers.

 

[Iconoclast]

And here you have a prime example of why discussions on this board go south. This out and out and very intentional misrepresentation of another's view is a disgusting and unChristian post.

Not at all...It is exactly accurate. Why or how could you ask God to do anything beyond what He has done, if you think it is up to the man? If you think it is "going south" it is only because you cannot answer the point/

 

[PreachTony]

Well, then, you seem your prayers seem to be consistent with you theology. I also appreciate your honesty. Thank you.

Thank you, Reformed. I try to be consistent. This flesh gets in the way of that from time to time, but I still strive to. When it comes to scriptural matters, I will always try to be honest.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is where It speaks to what the op is getting at;



This dialogue is where the value is.PT when he prays...does ask God to do something internally in theose he prays for. I suspect this is the case with all believers.

I would suspect that he prays that the Holy spirit would take the message of the Cross and Jesus and make the person hearing it be given ears to hear it, and to turn to God...

 

[convicted1]

I would suspect that he prays that the Holy spirit would take the message of the Cross and Jesus and make the person hearing it be given ears to hear it, and to turn to God...

And this is solely the work of God and not man...

 

[PreachTony]

And this is solely the work of God and not man...

If I believed in Irresistible Grace, then yes, you could say that. However, as I don't, then I cannot say I view it solely as the work of God. I do not say this to deny God's power or to limit it, because that is an impossibility for me. I can in no way add to nor take away from the sovereign power of God. Instead, though, I see God as having granted man will to choose. This does not mean that man can just up and decide to be saved. He must first hear the preached word, and then God must bring conviction upon him for his sins. This does not happen simply because someone hears the preached word. I sat under the preached word for the first ten years of my life, but I did not move to repentance until I was ten years old. That was, for me, the fullness of time in which God had set aside for me. But I still accepted the call. I could have turned from it. I could've run and hid under my covers, as children are wont to do when scared. When I was ten years old, and God moved on my heart to convict me of sin, He did not force salvation on me. He did not render me choiceless.

 

[convicted1]

If I believed in Irresistible Grace, then yes, you could say that. However, as I don't, then I cannot say I view it solely as the work of God. I do not say this to deny God's power or to limit it, because that is an impossibility for me. I can in no way add to nor take away from the sovereign power of God. Instead, though, I see God as having granted man will to choose. This does not mean that man can just up and decide to be saved. He must first hear the preached word, and then God must bring conviction upon him for his sins. This does not happen simply because someone hears the preached word. I sat under the preached word for the first ten years of my life, but I did not move to repentance until I was ten years old. That was, for me, the fullness of time in which God had set aside for me. But I still accepted the call. I could have turned from it. I could've run and hid under my covers, as children are wont to do when scared. When I was ten years old, and God moved on my heart to convict me of sin, He did not force salvation on me. He did not render me choiceless.

Believe it or not, you're sloooooowly coming around. I stated the same things myself. Just reread what I bolded.

God doesn't have to give us the ability to either reject or accept Him. We always rejected Him. He has to give us the ability to accept Him, though.

 

[PreachTony]

Believe it or not, you're sloooooowly coming around. I stated the same things myself. Just reread what I bolded.

God doesn't have to give us the ability to either reject or accept Him. We always rejected Him. He has to give us the ability to accept Him, though.

Hate to break your heart, C1, but I cannot see myself turning to your point of view. Yes, much of the terminology between our camps can be used for either stance, though it is the context of use, and not the literal interpretation of just a single phrase pulled out of the paragraph.

To come around to the Calvinist/Predestination point of view, I would have to completely change the view I have of God as revealed in the scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

To come around to the Calvinist/Predestination point of view, I would have to completely change the view I have of God as revealed in the scripture.

Yes it would & you would not be the first ....and you wont be the last. But I could understand that your a pastor of a Free Will Church so it would be a shock to your church & your family. God will out however. you will get there if only in your heart.:love2:

Quote: We are all born Arminians. It is grace that turns us into Calvinists
-George Whitefield

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And this is solely the work of God and not man...

QUITE CORRECT!:thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

If I believed in Irresistible Grace, then yes, you could say that. However, as I don't, then I cannot say I view it solely as the work of God. I do not say this to deny God's power or to limit it, because that is an impossibility for me. I can in no way add to nor take away from the sovereign power of God. Instead, though, I see God as having granted man will to choose. This does not mean that man can just up and decide to be saved. He must first hear the preached word, and then God must bring conviction upon him for his sins. This does not happen simply because someone hears the preached word. I sat under the preached word for the first ten years of my life, but I did not move to repentance until I was ten years old. That was, for me, the fullness of time in which God had set aside for me. But I still accepted the call. I could have turned from it. I could've run and hid under my covers, as children are wont to do when scared. When I was ten years old, and God moved on my heart to convict me of sin, He did not force salvation on me. He did not render me choiceless.

There was an ordained moment in time for you to get saved, and that is the same for all who come unto Jesus!

 

[convicted1]

Hate to break your heart, C1, but I cannot see myself turning to your point of view. Yes, much of the terminology between our camps can be used for either stance, though it is the context of use, and not the literal interpretation of just a single phrase pulled out of the paragraph.

To come around to the Calvinist/Predestination point of view, I would have to completely change the view I have of God as revealed in the scripture.

Hate to tell you this, but you ARE where I was at once. You're saying the exact things I once did. I hated the five points of Calvinism, hated those doctrines of grace. I even called them the doctrines of the devil. But slowly I began hearing things and something deep within me cringed. God slowly lead me to where I am at today...

 

[convicted1]

If I believed in Irresistible Grace, then yes, you could say that. However, as I don't, then I cannot say I view it solely as the work of God. I do not say this to deny God's power or to limit it, because that is an impossibility for me. I can in no way add to nor take away from the sovereign power of God. Instead, though, I see God as having granted man will to choose. This does not mean that man can just up and decide to be saved. He must first hear the preached word, and then God must bring conviction upon him for his sins. This does not happen simply because someone hears the preached word. I sat under the preached word for the first ten years of my life, but I did not move to repentance until I was ten years old. That was, for me, the fullness of time in which God had set aside for me. But I still accepted the call. I could have turned from it. I could've run and hid under my covers, as children are wont to do when scared. When I was ten years old, and God moved on my heart to convict me of sin, He did not force salvation on me. He did not render me choiceless.

Look veeeeeeery closely at what you typed here and especially what I bolded. First off, we don't say God forces salvation on anyone. He gives life to the lifeless. A corpse can no longer choose to breathe than to not breathe. We were spiritually dead, dead to righteousness, with no ability to do anything to act favorably before God. By His regenerating power, He gives us the ability to repent, believe...have faith iow...to seek Him. That is why it's imperitive to understand that regeneration precedes conversion. In regeneration, new eyes to see with, new ears to hear with, a new heart to love with all precedes conversion.

We don't believe people can't resist the Spirit. In a fallen, dead state, that's all we can do. As fallen creatures, we were at enmity with God, not subject to His laws, neither indeed could be(Romans 8:7). Unless God gives life to the lifeless, reconciliation to the unreconciled, they will reject Him until the very end. However, it is of my belief the non-elect, the goats, will never be drawn by Him. There is a general calling man does in preaching and/or witnessing. Then there's the effectual calling He does through our preaching and/or witnessing.


Trust me, you're slooooowly coming around....:wavey:

 

[PreachTony]

Yes it would & you would not be the first ....and you wont be the last. But I could understand that your a pastor of a Free Will Church so it would be a shock to your church & your family. God will out however. you will get there if only in your heart.:love2:

I wish I could be so confidently arrogant of my position on the scriptures to say that my theological doctrine, which is based on the writings of a fallible man interpreting the scriptures, was revealed to me only by grace.

Quote: We are all born Arminians. It is grace that turns us into Calvinists
-George Whitefield

I honestly hope not, EWF. From where I stand, if grace turns me into a Calvinist, then "grace" will have revealed unto me that God hates the vast majority of His own creation, He created man in His own image with the intention of sending most of that creation into damnation, and He alone has the ability to make man repent and turn from sin, yet He does not grant it except to a select few, and then He blames the rest of mankind for never turning to Him, when He actively kept them from turning in the first place. If grace reveals that unto me then it will prove me sorely wrong about the entirety of my ministry and the gospel I have tried my best to preach for the Lord.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I wish I could be so confidently arrogant of my position on the scriptures to say that my theological doctrine, which is based on the writings of a fallible man interpreting the scriptures, was revealed to me only by grace.



I honestly hope not, EWF. From where I stand, if grace turns me into a Calvinist, then "grace" will have revealed unto me that God hates the vast majority of His own creation, He created man in His own image with the intention of sending most of that creation into damnation, and He alone has the ability to make man repent and turn from sin, yet He does not grant it except to a select few, and then He blames the rest of mankind for never turning to Him, when He actively kept them from turning in the first place. If grace reveals that unto me then it will prove me sorely wrong about the entirety of my ministry and the gospel I have tried my best to preach for the Lord.

Sorry but God does not hate his creation....I'm surprised you would go to that place in discussion. What God hates is sin and that will be judged by him alone...if we are given to Jesus and then he payed the price then your sin is forgiven. But most will come to a final decision eventually....so whatever you decide brother, you are already saved.

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

From where I stand, if grace turns me into a Calvinist, then "grace" will have revealed unto me

STRAWMAN ALERT:thumbs:

that God hates the vast majority of His own creation,

Where do you get this from?show a quote.

He created man in His own image with the intention of sending most of that creation into damnation,

Again if you depict God in this way...show a quote.

and He alone has the ability to make man repent and turn from sin,

Man is responsible to repent and believe the gospel. It sounds like you want to dictate to God what you think He should do, rather than trust God that he is doing the exact right thing.

yet He does not grant it

He does not have to does He?

except to a select few

,
More than the stars of the heaven or the sand on the seashore. Does that sound like a select few to you? Where do you get this stuff???



Gen15 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Genesis 22:17

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Could you explain how this is a select few? If you cannot...perhaps you should not repeat such an error. If you want to dispute the teaching fine...but try and DO SO BIBLICALLY:thumbs:

and then He blames the rest of mankind for never turning to Him,

when He actively kept them from turning in the first place.

show how God keeps men from salvation. Where does ho do this?

If grace reveals that unto me then it will prove me sorely wrong about the entirety of my ministry and the gospel I have tried my best to preach for the Lord.

then again...if truth comes your way would that be bad?
This blame God for mans sin theology is unstable.

 

[steaver]

Let me begin by saying I love you, Brother Icon...but this is an arrogant worldview concerning theology. There is a "read-between-the-lines" undertone here that basically says if you don't hold to Calvinism then you are not really a true believer. It's not as broad-brushing as SBM's comment a few months ago that anyone who doesn't hold to TULIP as the gospel is not saved, but it's a pretty wide brush nonetheless.

Brother Tony, brother Icon is very clear that he holds the position no belief in TULIP = No sheep. It's funny because he will flat out make comments, as you can see, declaring as much and then he will say "Huh, where did I say that? Duh". He will just toil with you on this and act like he never implied or said such a thing, oh no.

Some of the other's will also say that God hates the lost and then when you repeat what they believe they will say "what, where did any Calvinist ever say that?"

They were nice to you for awhile, but now the teeth are coming out...careful not to get sucked into their holier than thou mindset.

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother Tony, brother Icon is very clear that he holds the position no belief in TULIP = No sheep. It's funny because he will flat out make comments, as you can see, declaring as much and then he will say "Huh, where did I say that? Duh". He will just toil with you on this and act like he never implied or said such a thing, oh no.

Some of the other's will also say that God hates the lost and then when you repeat what they believe they will say "what, where did any Calvinist ever say that?"

They were nice to you for awhile, but now the teeth are coming out...careful not to get sucked into their holier than thou mindset.

And yet you can only show how you twist what I say...when I answer you directly you run and hide. PT can answer for himself. You however seem to struggle:laugh:

Some of the other's will also say that God hates the lost and then when you repeat what they believe they will say "what, where did any Calvinist ever say that?"

PT must have something in mind unlike you steaver...let him answer!

They were nice to you for awhile, but now the teeth are coming out...careful not to get sucked into their holier than thou mindset.

So you resume your role as accuser of the brethren...I guess as you cannot really enter into the discussion in a meaningful way that is all that you have left.

 

[Reformed]

Some of the other's will also say that God hates the lost and then when you repeat what they believe they will say "what, where did any Calvinist ever say that?"

steaver, theologically speaking, God does hate the lost. Those that are lost are counted as enemies of Christ (Rom. 5:10; Phil. 3:18). Romans 1:18 states "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness". I would not exactly call that love language.

Now, before you go off on me, let me explain how that knowledge should impact each and every Christian, not just each and every Monergist. The fact that God hates the ungodly should motivate us to "let our light shine" and by sharing the gospel as God gives opportunity. As I have said many times on this board, we do not possess perfect knowledge. I do not know who is elect and who is not. It is not my place to know. What I do know is that God has ordained the means by which sinners will be born again. That means the preaching of the Gospel. Armed with that knowledge, perhaps God will use even me to proclaim the Gospel to a lost sinner who God will call to eternal life. What a great and humbling privilege to be used by God as a herald of the Good News.

So, yes. I know God's disposition to His enemies as revealed in the Bible. But I do not revel in that knowledge. I would much rather be an instrument that God uses to share the words that lead to life.

They were nice to you for awhile, but now the teeth are coming out...careful not to get sucked into their holier than thou mindset.

God forbid that I should ever act that way. It is never my intent.

 

[steaver]

And yet you can only show how you twist what I say...when I answer you directly you run and hide. PT can answer for himself. You however seem to struggle:laugh:

So you resume your role as accuser of the brethren...I guess as you cannot really enter into the discussion in a meaningful way that is all that you have left.

And right on cue you once again prove my point. :thumbsup: Tony already seen your accusations against those who reject TULIP. You have been very faithful at reiterating it over and over for the board to see. But as I said brother, you are being faithful to Calvinism and telling it like Calvinism believes. Others here don't like to be so truthful and blunt as you do. (Notice how no other Calvinist disagrees with your post? No belief in TULIP = no sheep. Everyone sees your post brother, it's not just me :smilewinkgrin: )