More Seventh-Day Adventists

[DHK]

thats a he?

It was Jesus that died on the cross.
It was Jesus that atoned for our sins.
It was Jesus that declared in one final exclamation: It is finished!

And Jesus is HE! And that is all that counts.
If your not able to address the main points of the post, the just say so.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
In Corinth "EACH ONE has a revelation" as the TEXT saYS -- BUT as DHK points out "EACH one " does not really mean "EACH ONE" it means very importent men only -- so "BOTH of them" replaces "EACH one of them" in DHK's Bible.

How "instructive".

1 Corinthians 14[/b]
1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.[/b]

OH but "that part of the Bible is not meant for women to read" - you might be saying DHK...

But then we SEE in Acts that Philips 4 daughters are prophets for the church even as Miriam was a prophet in her day and Deborah a Judge and a prophet in her day...

so much bible to be ignored DHK -- and so little time to do it. But how else are you going to get to the DHK conclusion where DHK said "Women are always out of order aren't they?"

It is instructive isn't it. It is very instructive to all who read this to see how you take a statement out of context and use it to justify your own preconceived ideas. Read the context.
"Each one has a revelation." Yes, that is what was wrong. It was a rebuke. It wasn't supposed to be that way.

wrong -- .again.

In 1Cor 14 Paul does NOT say "EACH one has a revelation but ONLY MEN are allowed to do it". INSTEAD Pau says "DESIRE EARNESTLY spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" - speaking to the whole church.

Then when getting to the fact that EACH ONE has a revelation Paul says that they should take turne - speaking in turn BUT if while one IS speaking ANOTHER receives a revelation then - MID-SENTENCE the first is to sit down and let the one who has just been given a revelation speak.

NOTHING here about "women should never be given this gift in churchl" - as if Paul would now be instructing the Holy Spirit.

But when it came to toungues a very different rule is used than was used for prophesy.

Remember Paul had just told them that only two or three at the very most could speak in tongues and even then they had to have an interpreter.

indeed by CONTRAST to the rule given in 1cor 14 for prophesy.

So it was, with having a revelation. The same thing applied.

Text please.

None? You just made that part up??

How "suprising" - how "instructive.

Not everyone could clamour for attention and make chaos in the service. They were being self-centered. They were being "show-offs,"

In the case of tongues - it is in the text - and you are right.

In the case of Prophecy what you say is NOT in the text of 1Cor 14 and you are making it up "anyway".

. Read 1Cor.3:1-3. Paul was rebuking them not praising them.

True - Paul has both praise and criticism for that church as the details show.

Each one--supposedly had a revelation--but in truth it wasn't so.

Paul does not say "supposedly had a revelation" you simply "make up more stuff" lacking in the text for your POV.

You go on to say "wasn't so" to the very point Paul says IS SO....

And you call your own "making stuff up" some kind of "Bible evidence" in contradiction to my actually QUOTING the text that you say "was not so"!!

How instructive!!

DHK Some of them were faking it.

Text Please.

None? Just making stuff up in 1Cor 14 "again"??

Does it ever stop for you DHK??

More Scripture taken out of context.
Paul was comparing the value of prophesying to the value of speaking in tongues in the first century local churches, especially in Corinth--when the spiritual gifts were still in operation. They are no longer in operation today.

Paul does not say "please ignore this scripture after the first century"

Paul does NOT say "1Cor 12 -- just for first century"

You freely make stuff up when it suits you to do it- then you complain when others QUOTE the scriptures of even the NT that you find inconvenient and wish to ignore.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said
"Especially that you may prophecy" is in contrast to "speaking in tongues" because when they spoke in tongues, it was a mystery--a mystery in the sense that no one could understand them. Prophecy was not foretelling but a forthtelling, a proclamation of the truth, such as the prophets of the Old Testament spent so much of their time doing.

wrong - you can't simply make stuff up here.

In Numbers 12 GOD SAID "IF there is a prophet among you I WILL make myself known to them by dream or vision" the Prophet gets direct communication from God.

Second point of error in your post is that 1Cor 14 does NOT start by saying "lets discuss tongues and prophecy -- it is good to desire them but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" --- rather it says "DESIRE EARNESTLY Spiritual Gifts" -- that is the entire SET seen in 1Cor 12 which INCLUDES teaching and faith and pastors etc -- and then it says "But ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy".

These inconvenient facts of scripture totally debunk your argument above.

Prophecy was a more valuable gift Paul was saying. He was drawing a contrast between prophecy and tongues,

Wrong again -- let's look at the text. Paul STARTS by referencing ALL Spiritual Gifts and then in that context says to DESIRE THEM and "especially that you may Prophesy".

1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]

THEN and only THEN - having established the primacy of prophecy above them ALL - he narrows the focus down to a comparison of Prophecy at the HEAD and Tongues at the tail.

I don't know if you are making stuff up in 1Cor 14 and trying to ignore the inconvenient start of 1Cor 14 due to some desire to teach heresy or if it was taught to you in some cult group -- but my suggestion is that you free yourself from those man-made traditions and simply accept the Word of God as it reads.

Relax - let the Bible speak and stop coming to it with your prior agendas.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You still can't get away from the fact that Paul says that a woman must remain silent in the church. What do you do, Bob? Cut that verse out of your Bible?

I really want to get into that point -- but before I do...

Question for Marcia.

Is your voice EVER heard in church Marcia???

If you have or if you had daughters would you instruct them in such a way to insure the sound of their voice was never heard by anyone in church since after all -- women should not be heard in church according to DHK's view of 1Cor 14.

I just gotta know what you are thinking at this point. Because I have to say - I have been to a few SBC churches and I DID hear the voice of a woman a few times both in song and in actual speaking - while inside the building RIGHT in the congregation they could easily be heard!!

Pretty shocking stuff - according to DHK's view.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We discussed Philip's daughters before. We discussed Philip before. Philip did miracles in Samaria. Can you do that? Philip, after leading the Ethiopian to the Lord and baptizing him, was carried away by the Spirit to another part of the country. Does that happen to you?

You are climbing Wayyyy out on that limb now sir.

How's that working for you?

Do you consider you statement above to be in the remotest sense exegesis?????

So his daughters prophesied. Unusual events in unusual times.

It was scripture -- it matches PERFECTLY with 1Cor 12 and 1COR 14 -- it is only "an anomaly" when compared to your man-made traditions ... but in scripture IT FITS!

It was a time of transition in the book of Acts. The book of Acts is a book of history--not a book of doctrine.

We see the PRACTICE of the NT saints in Act -- and oh by the way "God was not just LEARNING how to deal with Christians back then" -- rather God already KNEW how to inspire men-only IF THAT was what He wanted to do.

Your story telling above is of the form "God was just then figuring it out in the early days"

How sad that you climb so far out on that limb to defend your story telling.

The fact that those daughters prophesied was a fulfillment of the prophesy given in Joel as Peter pointed out on the Day of Pentecost.

Indeed - instead of the END it was the predicted START of a new oder of things!!

Your OT examples are frivilous and have nothing to do with this day and age.

oops!! Did I read the BAD BIBLE as it is labeled by you?? Sorry but I have to do it since it IS THE ALL SCRIPTURE of the NT saints referenced in 2Tim 3:15-17!!

But it is good to know that you turn a bliind eye to that scripture that Paul speaks of in 2Tim 3 and will admit to it here in public.

The time of the Book of Judges were unusual times. How many people like Samson do we see today? Fair is fair Bob. If Deborah, why not Samson, or Shamgar, or Gideon, or the others. The fact is that we don't.

1Cor 12 DOES ARGUE FOR the continuation of those spiritual gifts - only YOU argue against them -- not scripture!

And of course by "you" I really just mean "man-made tradtions popular today".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Considering His "Atoning SACRIFICE" completed ONCE for all at the cross - the most significant words in the bible

1John 2:2 "AND He is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" --

Atoning sacrifice of Christ - full and complete at the cross!

But in Lev 16 GOD TELLS us that the ATONEMENT PROCESS must INCLUDE the work of HIGH PRIEST who MAKES Atonement with the blood of the Atoning Sacrifice -- we SEE this in Heb 8, 9 and 10.

More Inconvenient Bible for some to continue to ignore.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

It was Jesus that died on the cross.
It was Jesus that atoned for our sins.
It was Jesus that declared in one final exclamation: It is finished!

And Jesus is HE! And that is all that counts.
If your not able to address the main points of the post, the just say so.

I was asking you if Shiloh was a "he" because you called him/her a "he" and Bob had called him/her a "she" over on another thread.

And it wasnt that I couldnt address the point of your post it was just that you said Jesus' work was finished at the cross... and we had already explained our position on that so I didnt think there would be any point to repeat it again.

Claudia

 

[DHK]

Bob said
In Corinth "EACH ONE has a revelation" as the TEXT saYS -- BUT as DHK points out "EACH one " does not really mean "EACH ONE" it means very importent men only -- so "BOTH of them" replaces "EACH one of them" in DHK's Bible.

How "instructive".

It is instructive that you ignore the rest of Scripture. I will have to address one point at a time for you so that you will be forced to answer the point in question. Otherwise you ignore it. Each one does not have the gift of prophecy. This is obviously and painflully wrong, as it is with any spiritual gift. Look at Scripture:

1 Corinthians 12:8-11 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
--You conveniently ignore Scripture that teaches the direct opposite of what you teach. Only some had the gift of prophecy. This is exactly what is taught here. Not everyone had the same gifts. Why do you ignore Scripture? The reason: You are biased toward your own pre-conceived theology that you don't want to consider the truth of the Scripture.

More Scripture:
1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--The obvious answer is no. Not all are prophets as Paul indicates, and thus not all have the gift of prophecy. This is directly contrary to what you teach.

More Scripture:
1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
--Suppose the one having the gift of prophecy is the eye of the body. Bob would have us to believe that all in the body are eyes, and the body therefore would have no feet, no hands, possibly not even a head. What an odd looking body he has--full of eyes (the gift of prophecy and nothing else.)
But there is more than just the gift of prophecy. Not every one had the gift of prophecy. Different individuals had different gifts that the body would be made complete.

I will not answer the rest of your post until you are able to digest this much.

 

[Marcia]

The Bible shows the work of Christ as our High Priest in heaven -
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There is nothing in the text that says Christ's is atoning for us in heaven, Bob. Look at the passages in Hebrews that state he is seated. This is also in Ephesians. He is seated because his work is finished. If he were still atoning, we would not be told he was seated. The high priest was not seated when he was doing the atonement.

On the cross, Jesus said, "It is finished" - the debt has been paid, is what that phrase means.

The difference is that SDAs hold to the Bible truth that the "Atoning SACRIFICE" was completed at the cross (1John 2:2 NIV) and that the Lev 16 PROCESS OF ATONEMENT includes MORE than just a dead lamb when you actually read the text. It INCLUDES the High Priest's work that so many Christians want to ignore today as being PART of that PROCESS.

The reason the SDA church has this theology about Christ atoning in heaven is because of the failed prophecies by Ellen White and Miller that Jesus would return to earth in 1844. When it didn't happen, the "prophecy" changed to a teaching that Jesus entered the 2nd apt. of the sanctuary of heaven for the investigative judgment and final atonement to begin for cleansing of sins. This makes a liar out of Christ, who said "It is finished" on the cross and who is pictured as seated in heaven.

Atonement was at the cross. It is finished. Jesus is not atoning anymore. He died "once for all" - paid the penalty for death.

who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Heb 7.27

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10.10

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Atonement was at the cross. It is finished. Jesus is not atoning anymore. He died "once for all" - paid the penalty for death.

HP: Understanding the different ways of looking at the atonement, for instance the literal payment theory of the Calvinists and the substitutionary atonement of others, it is easy to see the source of confusion.

I agree with you that the work of atonement, the building of the bridge to make salvation possible, is finished just as Scripture indicates, but just because Christ is seated does not imply that there is nothing He is doing in relationship to the atonement. I believe Scripture represents Christ applying the blood to our individual lives as we repent and believe. Even today He is our High priest and is making intercession before God on our behalf is He not? Still yet to come is when He will act as our Advocate before God the Father as we stand before God in judgment.

Although there is a sense in which the atonement is finished, there is a sense in which it has been applied, is being applied, and will be applied to our lives that will not be over until this world is dissolved and we stand before God in judgment. His work on the cross is finished. The application of that work upon the lives of those who repent and believe is still being accomplished.

If you take the position of a literal payment, there is absolutely no way to escape the illogical ends of that argument, which is none other than fatalistic determination.

 

[Marcia]

I agree with you that the work of atonement, the building of the bridge to make salvation possible, is finished just as Scripture indicates, but just because Christ is seated does not imply that there is nothing He is doing in relationship to the atonement. I believe Scripture represents Christ applying the blood to our individual lives as we repent and believe. .

The blood was shed once for all, HP. We confess sins to stay in a close relationship to the Lord but we are forgiven. Unless you believe that one can lose his/her salvation.

and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1.20

Even today He is our High priest and is making intercession before God on our behalf is He not? Still yet to come is when He will act as our Advocate before God the Father as we stand before God in judgment.

Making intercession is not atonement. The atonement being complete on the cross is one of the bedrocks of the biblical and historic Christian faith.

Although there is a sense in which the atonement is finished, there is a sense in which it has been applied, is being applied, and will be applied to our lives that will not be over until this world is dissolved and we stand before God in judgment. His work on the cross is finished. The application of that work upon the lives of those who repent and believe is still being accomplished.

I think you are confusing atonement and redemption or sanctification. Atonement is completed. Spiritually we are redeemed but physical redemption is in the future. We are also in the process of sanctification. But atonement is the payment Christ made for the penalty of sins. Jesus did that "once for all." He is not still paying for the penalty of sins!!

When Christ atoned for sins, he paid the penalty for death, and by this act we are reconciled to God through faith in Christ. The atonement was one act at one time at one place.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: He is not still paying for the penalty of sins!!

HP: I fully agree with that point. Neither did He ever ‘literally’ pay the penalty of sin. He made a satisfaction to the law that God saw as sufficient to safely governmentally treat those who would fulfill the conditions of repentance and faith as if though they had never sinned.

The penalty for sin is eternal separation from God. Jesus did not suffer that. He made an atonement for sin, not a literal payment.

Marcia: When Christ atoned for sins, he paid the penalty for death, and by this act we are reconciled to God through faith in Christ. The atonement was one act at one time at one place.

HP: I am assuming that you made a typo here. What penalty is there for death?

 

[BobRyan]

From Page 11 -

Bob said --

Considering His "Atoning SACRIFICE" completed ONCE for all at the cross - the most significant words in the bible

1John 2:2 "AND He is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and NOT for our sins ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" --

Atoning sacrifice of Christ - full and complete at the cross!

But in Lev 16 GOD TELLS us that the ATONEMENT PROCESS must INCLUDE the work of HIGH PRIEST who MAKES Atonement with the blood of the Atoning Sacrifice -- we SEE this in Heb 8, 9 and 10.

More Inconvenient Bible for some to continue to ignore.

And this means of course - that Christ is not still in the process of paying for sin - of providing the once-for all completed "Atoning Sacrifice".

Marcia adds

....the payment Christ made for the penalty of sins. Jesus did that "once for all." He is not still paying for the penalty of sins!!

Payment for sins as in the 1John 2:2 concept of "ATONING SACRIFICE" was completed at the cross.

But denying the role of the High Priest in that PROCESS of atonement that GOD STATES in Lev 16 is to turn a blind eye to the truth given to us in scripture in favor of man made traditions and speculations.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The blood was shed once for all, HP. We confess sins to stay in a close relationship to the Lord but we are forgiven. Unless you believe that one can lose his/her salvation.

SDAs like most other christians reject OSAS.

Making intercession is not atonement. The atonement being complete on the cross is one of the bedrocks

Denying the high priestly role of Christ in the atonement process that God describes in Lev 16 IS NOT a form of Bible exegesis - it can only be done via man-made-tradition taught as doctrine instead of following Scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with you that the work of atonement, the building of the bridge to make salvation possible, is finished just as Scripture indicates, but just because Christ is seated does not imply that there is nothing He is doing in relationship to the atonement. I believe Scripture represents Christ applying the blood to our individual lives as we repent and believe. Even today He is our High priest and is making intercession before God on our behalf is He not? Still yet to come is when He will act as our Advocate before God the Father as we stand before God in judgment.

Although there is a sense in which the atonement is finished, there is a sense in which it has been applied, is being applied, and will be applied to our lives that will not be over until this world is dissolved and we stand before God in judgment.

True -- let's see how GOD defines it --

In Lev 16 we have God's teaching on Atonement showing that Christ's role as the LAMB of God (Atoning Sacrifice) is needed AND SO ALSO is Christ's role as our High Priest (seen in Lev 16 AND in the book of Hebrews).

Those who deny the role of Christ as high Priest in Lev 16 go on to deny that his Work as high Priest in Hebrews has anything to do with What GOD TAUGHT about the work of the high Priest in scripture.

how sad.

In Dan 7 we see this work in living color and the RESULT of that work (Dan 7:21-22) is that "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints". Here we see the atonement PROCESS at a point where not only is the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the world BUT ALSO the high priestly work of christ has resulted in "judgment passed in FAVOR of the saints".

And of course Romans 2 describes IN DETAIL how that judgment process comes to its conclusions.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: And of course Romans 2 describes IN DETAIL how that judgment process comes to its conclusions.

HP: That 2nd chapter of Romans,…… an indeed insightful passage of Scripture. I will re-read it in light of this issue and see what new insight it might hold for me.

 

[BobRyan]

Please do -- and note that Paul in Romans 2 and 2Cor 5:9-10, Christ in Matt 7 and James in James 2 are all making the same argument about how this future objective, corporate work in behalf of the saints is done.

Also note this in Rev 15 at the end - the work of Christ ministering as high Priest ends so that the seven last plagues can start.

We also have ample evidence today that even the Jews understood the Lev 16
Day of Atonement to include this idea of future judgment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The SDA's are so stuck to the law of the OT that given the opportunity they could not prove their doctrine using only the NT.
Yet the gospel is a NT message. The church began at Pentecost. It is called the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a NT message not found in the OT. In Hebrews it tells us ..."having not yet received the promise..." The gospel is a NT message.
Can the SDA's demonstrate their doctrine without the OT. Le't see what happens.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA's are so stuck to the law of the OT that given the opportunity they could not prove their doctrine using only the NT.

I have said from the start that we can not prove our doctrine using only Malachi or using only Matt 24 or using only Luke or using only certain NT texts that you like. Your "good Bible vs Bad Bible" idea where "Whatever is not repeated gets deleted" has never been the SDA model for Bible study.

INSTEAD we use the 2Tim 3 principle "ALL SCRIPTURE inspired and used for Doctrine" KNOWING that for the NT saints - their SCRIPTURE included the OT text as we see time after time in the NT writings.

You simply turn a blind eye to this Bible principle and say such things as you have quoted above.

Our differences here are glaringly obvious.

Yet the gospel is a NT message.

AND an OT Message as well according to 2Tim3 AND according to Heb 4:1 "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM JUST as it was to US as well" AND according to 2Peter 1 .

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.[/b


In Gal 1:6-9 we are told that in OT and NT there is and has only ever been "ONE GOSPEL" not two. The saints of Heb 11 were born again and saved under the ONE Gospel. Depraved sinners that came to God through Christ and were born again as Christ said to Nicodemus PRE-CROSS that ALL OT Bible scholars must fully know. "Are you a Bible teacher in Israel and yet you claim not to know such Bible truth?"

By CONTRAST your gospel is "another Gospel" one not found in the SCRIPTUREs of the NT authors as they pointed their own readers to SCRIPTURE

DHK said
The church began at Pentecost. It is called the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a NT message not found in the OT.

By contrast to that false doctrine Paul says in Gal 1:6-9 "Even though WE are an angel from heaven should come to you preaching ANOTHER Gospel let him be accursed".

This is the SAME book where we find Paul saying in chapter 3 "the Gospel was preached TO ABRAHAM" Gal 3:7.
In John 8:56 Christ said that "Abraham SAW MY DAY and was glad" showing us that Abraham was SHOWN the work of Christ on earth as the Messiah prophetically. 2Peter 1 is LITERALLY true!!

DHK said
Can the SDA's demonstrate their doctrine without the OT. Le't see what happens.

If SDAs ever take such a scripture-denying two-gospel doctrinal position - may they be accursed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

If SDAs ever take such a scripture-denying two-gospel doctrinal position - may they be accursed.

In Christ,

Bob

So it has been; so be it.
John 3:16 is found in the NT; but not in the OT. It is as simple as that.